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My understanding is that it does not make changes to the base spark table and each car would be getting the same base table just Iike a factory car. The end user can still make adjustments to that if they are chasing a few more horsepower.
yes the spark advance is changed at the given load at the given rpm in tne spark table. Its the same with the fuel table. thats about as far as I understand it btw. im not a tuner.

he said it would be $1000 not because i had an na vehicle, but because I have the pro m.

I have cost him a lot of money by getting the pro m and not going back for a retune EVERYTIME i change something on my engine.
I was curious. So essentially it tunes fueling and idle valve and then the end user is responsible for wot timing changes until they’re happy with the power level.

Honestly anybody who goes back to a tuner over and over again nowadays is a lunatic. With the advances in standalone systems, most people can dial in fuel and timing themselves on a dyno, if not using mph on something like a dragy.

Hard to believe people still do the sct style chips. Been guilty of it myself in the past, but never again.
 
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I was curious. So essentially it tunes fueling and idle valve and then the end user is responsible for wot timing changes until they’re happy with the power level.

Honestly anybody who goes back to a tuner over and over again nowadays is a lunatic. With the advances in standalone systems, most people can dial in fuel and timing themselves on a dyno, if not using mph on something like a dragy.

Hard to believe people still do the sct style chips. Been guilty of it myself in the past, but never again.
then the end user is responsible for wot timing changes until they’re happy with the power level.

If they want/choose to, absolutely.
it does spark advance, fuel, idle etc.

My base fuel spark tables remain the same no matter what engine I use. it all depends in the load commanded at the given rpm.

After all my combinations, I can safely say it really doesn't matter what engine size, cam, heads, exhaust, power adder, transmission you put in as long as the information you entered is correct, the pro m can handle it. Load is load. its very simple.
 

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I was curious. So essentially it tunes fueling and idle valve and then the end user is responsible for wot timing changes until they’re happy with the power level.

Honestly anybody who goes back to a tuner over and over again nowadays is a lunatic. With the advances in standalone systems, most people can dial in fuel and timing themselves on a dyno, if not using mph on something like a dragy.

Hard to believe people still do the sct style chips. Been guilty of it myself in the past, but never again.
they still have to rent the dyno time, and that can add up if they dont know what theyre doing.
 

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I am very happy with my Holley. I am glad I didn't pay Pro M money for it. It runs great no complaints. I am trying to get every last HP so the tune is not done. Out of the box it track times were unchanged from the A9L on a Stock motor. I think with some more time tuning it at the track I could gain a little.

So far I have really enjoyed the 2-step, electric fan control (I had it on the fog light switch before) and data logging. I am trying to convince my Dad to put one on his car.
 

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^ are you saying that your nearly stock car has the Holley, but the tune is not done and it is not any better than the stock A9L?

maybe I am reading it wrong.
 

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^ are you saying that your nearly stock car has the Holley, but the tune is not done and it is not any better than the stock A9L?

maybe I am reading it wrong.
Yes it's ET and MPH are same as the A9L. I am slowly learning it out and then I am going add timing. It is stock from the TB to oil pan.

Anyone ever put a Pro M on a Stock car and take it to the track and compare the times?

It may have been a very expensive 2 step but the last time I was at the track I made 4 passes and they were all within 0.025 from eash other. For a 5 speed car not to bad.
 

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Anyone ever put a Pro M on a Stock car and take it to the track and compare the times?

WT thunder........

You would think ProM the designer would invest in that type of comparison.......but clearly they would shake their head for it even being proposed
 

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Yes it's ET and MPH are same as the A9L. I am slowly learning it out and then I am going add timing. It is stock from the TB to oil pan.

Anyone ever put a Pro M on a Stock car and take it to the track and compare the times?

It may have been a very expensive 2 step but the last time I was at the track I made 4 passes and they were all within 0.025 from eash other. For a 5 speed car not to bad.
no unfortunately but I have swapped my 408 to a stock 302, stock heads, cam, explorer intake and changed minor information in the tune.

there isn't a track near me anymore. atco closed down and that was nearest.
 

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If you are buying a new EFI system for a stock 302 turd and hoping for significant 1/4 improvement you are going to be disappointed. 200hp vs 220hp is not going to be a big difference in the 1/4.
 

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I was not expecting huge gains in its current form. The plan is to add a turbo charger. I am trying to learn the system and let the leaves grow back on the money tree.
 

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As for me, Holly Terminator is not very much, when I worked in wall work trucks I put such, and there were problems with the adapter harness because it will fail, I do not know maybe I'm unlucky. Although here the guys say it's a good choice. As for me it is better pro m. No, I do not want to say anything, but for more powerful engines you need to choose better devices.
 

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Anyone ever put a Pro M on a Stock car and take it to the track and compare the times?
What would this prove? The biggest feature of the Pro-m is that it functions at an OEM level and makes the experience of driving the car an enjoyable one. I might track the car twice a year the rest is all street driving where a tenth or two isn’t going to change a thing but a wonky idle or some other hiccup will ruin the experience in a second.
 

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What would this prove? The biggest feature of the Pro-m is that it functions at an OEM level and makes the experience of driving the car an enjoyable one. I might track the car twice a year the rest is all street driving where a tenth or two isn’t going to change a thing but a wonky idle or some other hiccup will ruin the experience in a second.
That was mostly in response to the above questions of putting an Holley on a stock Foxbody. I don't think a Pro-m would be that much better on a stock car either.

I am glad the Pro-m guys can afford and like their products. I have been pleased with the price and performance of the Terminator X.
 

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The way I understand it: Get the Pro-M if you want to drive the car. Anything else if you want to tune the car.
 
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The way I understand it: Get the Pro-M if you want to drive the car. Anything else if you want to tune the car.
I dunno, the 3500 miles I've put on my car have been pretty awesome. Any system is going to require tuning. Every engine is different.
 

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The way I understand it: Get the Pro-M if you want to drive the car. Anything else if you want to tune the car.
While I'm glad there is more than one quality ECU control system to choose from, this is over-simplified. The implication is that the people who prefer Pro-M are simple folks who just want their engine to run "good enough, but not optimized" may be partially true, if not a little insulting. The idea that the Holley system is for tinkerers who want to eek out every little bit of driveability and performance also has some truth to it, but it ignores that the system is also fairly easy to get up and running.

When I 1st put my new 427W with an "on-the-edge" of streetability cam (not recommended for EFI control - see sig) in, I used the stock A9L with my quality home-made 97mm slot-MAF that had already shown it's mettle supporting my 480HP supercharged combo to get the car going. Change engine displacement from 306 to 427.6 in ECU - check, up idle speed for bigger cam - check, hope there wasn't an exhaust leak at flange - fingers crossed. I kept the same conservative WOT timing I had with the supercharger. Car started right up, air/fuel was right on due to MAF and O2 feedback and rings sealed - yay.

Now the challenge of dialing in a tune with a cam that they say won't work with EFI. Surging up to 3000 RPM while cruising - how annoying. At least it idled well :LOL: . I read and tried stuff, read and tried things. I got it to run better by retarding timing at cruise, but that was just a band-aid. What the engine really wanted was more fuel at lower "cruise" RPMs to compensate for the random dilution of the mixture caused by the big ol' cam. The A9L's narrowband O2 feedback system isn't really equipped to skew the mixture rich to fix issues like this. It can be "biased" to run rich, perhaps someone will attempt this as I didn't know the engine needed more fuel before I gave up. The A9L is also a bit on the slow side for an engine expected to make peak power above 6k RPM. Also, I had a TON of patch wiring to log the wideband, fuel pressure, meth injection, patch in the CD ignition box w/2-step etc. Even the MAF wiring was patched in years ago as the Cougar originally came with an older non-MAF ECU. 10k engine w/used TwEECer that I got for cheap? Nah.

Since I fit into the cheapskate enthusiast/engineer who wants access to lots of built-in datalogging and adjustments, the Holley caught my eye. It has a huge customer base, and used pieces were on sale all over the place. I found an HP ECU for 40% off and impulsively bought it (who can relate? ;) "I can always sell it" lol.) My biggest concern was that there is no MAF used in the Holley setup. It's speed density only, like the OEM ECU that originally came with my V8 Cougar.

As for other systems, since I've read obsessively about engine control for at least 15 years, my biased opinion was that MegaSquirt was too complicated, even for me; and support is OK - though some scary issues have been noted by our buddy Alex here. ProM - seems quite lovely - I like that the company is local to me and thus I assume the guy is almost as smart as me (a-hole yankee humor.) He deserves every penny he gets as he's obviously perfected the system, best I can tell. Too much cake for me and the user-base isn't as large. Even worse, the userbase seems more dedicated to it's "out of the box" performance, so less in-detail info about how to tweak performance and it's harder to find. I don't need to be "protected" from the systems' ins and outs. I'm not familiar with FAST or other systems that aren't discussed as much. I liked that Holley has very helpful forums that has at least one dedicated (if not a little kooky) person who can answer 90% of user questions. I knew the system would work and adapt well to my setup before purchasing. Sounds like ProM may be even easier to adapt based on the comments here.

I pieced together a Holley HP system including injectors and dual-sync distributor for $1899. It would have cost $3k at new retail prices. This was before the Terminator X system came out, which could do the same for a few hundred less than I paid. Well, almost the same, I need the extra features of the HP setup, so it worked out better for me. They also have the throttle-body setups which save dough, though they are restrictive on a larger displacement strokers.

Anyway, I installed the HP ECU, put in a canned tune for my larger cam and injectors (that comes with the software), adjusted a couple of parameters (ignition type, injector size, idle speed etc.) and started it. Ran very good and I drove it a bit to let it learn. After that you can look at the "learn table" and transfer the learned values to the base fuel table. After doing this a few times, the base fuel table gets dialed in to your engine. This is not necessary after a while as the learned values get smaller and smaller. It works just like the OEM ECU in this way, except the MAF determines fuel flow. Six of one, half a dozen of the other - on one system you may have to adjust MAF and/or injector slopes, on the other you dial in the "base fuel" table. Simple enough.

This is it for learning for most people. For me, the engine ran better, but it still surged up to about 2500 RPM. Better than the TwEECer could accomplish (and without any tuning), but not good enough. After reading around more, I learned that one can improve the surging issue by commanding a richer mixture to compensate for the dilution that occurs with a larger cam at light loads (and idle.) As it is, Holley knows this and commands a richer than stoich mixture at idle and cruising. Since the idle was perfect, I enriched the off-idle mixture and saw immediate improvement. Dialed this in and saw improvement in surging down to 2000-2200 RPM. Next I did some research on optimizing injector end-angle (when is the injector shut off.) This affects how much fuel is trapped when one has a large overlap cam with a later intake closing point. I tweaked someone else's work from the Holley forum and then, since the system allows one to adjust the endpoint while the engine is running, I did an experiment where I adjusted the endpoint x number of degrees at a time and looked for the lowest amount of fuel being added and highest vacuum. While this fine-tuning is over the head of most, I was able to cut the amount of fuel wasted at idle by about 10% while at the same time achieving another inch of vacuum. This is a huge deal when you go from 8" to 9" of vacuum. Now I can tip-in and cruise as low at 1500 RPM, 1800 typical without any notable surging - even in 5th gear overdrive. My power brakes even work reliably with the added vacuum.
 

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This is it for learning for most people. For me, the engine ran better, but it still surged up to about 2500 RPM. Better than the TwEECer could accomplish (and without any tuning), but not good enough. After reading around more, I learned that one can improve the surging issue by commanding a richer mixture to compensate for the dilution that occurs with a larger cam at light loads (and idle.) As it is, Holley knows this and commands a richer than stoich mixture at idle and cruising. Since the idle was perfect, I enriched the off-idle mixture and saw immediate improvement. Dialed this in and saw improvement in surging down to 2000-2200 RPM. Next I did some research on optimizing injector end-angle (when is the injector shut off.) This affects how much fuel is trapped when one has a large overlap cam with a later intake closing point. I tweaked someone else's work from the Holley forum and then, since the system allows one to adjust the endpoint while the engine is running, I did an experiment where I adjusted the endpoint x number of degrees at a time and looked for the lowest amount of fuel being added and highest vacuum. While this fine-tuning is over the head of most, I was able to cut the amount of fuel wasted at idle by about 10% while at the same time achieving another inch of vacuum. This is a huge deal when you go from 8" to 9" of vacuum. Now I can tip-in and cruise as low at 1500 RPM, 1800 typical without any notable surging - even in 5th gear overdrive. My power brakes even work reliably with the added vacuum.
I have that injector angle 2d table on my terminator x tune using the program that guy on the holley forums made. When you were adjusting it, did you get better results going more negative with the numbers or going higher with them?
 

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I have that injector angle 2d table on my terminator x tune using the program that guy on the holley forums made. When you were adjusting it, did you get better results going more negative with the numbers or going higher with them?
My theory combined with experimentation concluded that you calculate the table using the default Holley method by inputting the cam values and hitting "recalculate", then add an Injector Phase Offset that puts the lower left cells in the table at the values from my spreadsheet. This is dependent on injector size and a small correction using intake cross sectional area to account for charge velocity (affects delay time from injector to valve.) In my case adding an Injector Phase Offset of 60 degrees did what I wanted in the important area in the lower left.

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The only other change I made was to make any cells in the upper right of the table that were positive to "0" (e.g., don't let the injector still be open after BDC @ WOT, high RPM.) I can't recall 100% of what I was thinking at the time I came up with this, but the calculation I came up with put the injector pulse in the "sweet spot" based on my experiment shifting the endpoint while the engine was running. Fortunately + or - 10 degrees or so doesn't make any real difference.

Compared to the spreadsheet you used, I don't know if I'm more or less negative. Also, I didn't bother to make a different 2D table like Allan does, the injector timing only really makes a noticeable difference at idle and light load cruising (depending on one's cam and injectors.)
 
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