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Discussion Starter #1
I've been researching this for a while and there seems to be guys with low 60ft times with stock style and relocated uppers. I've ran across guys running boxed factory arms that et with the best of them. I take everything with a grain of salt but am curious as to who is right? I can't find anything conclusive.

UPR suspended cars are successful and many are record setters with stock location rears.

Team Z suspended and Baseline cars seem to be equally successful with the relocated uppers.

I'm sure this topic has been beat to death but I'm thinking there may be newer information on this topic.
 

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It is all about the I/C. It does not really matter how you get there, if the I/C is right for your car, and the rest of the suspension components are up to the task, (tires included) then getting a good 60' is a given. I went 1.29 in the 60' with just heavy duty adjustable control arms in the stock location, with the exception of the rear of the lower control arm dropped down 1". I had good rear springs, in stock location, good rear single adjustable shocks. All on a 26x8.5 tire at 3,150+ lbs.
I now have the Baseline Suspensions Outlaw relocated adjustable rear set up, with Double adjustable rear shocks, same rear springs and have gone 1.26 in the 60' without even trying. When the car gets back on the track next year, I know that 60' will get better with more tuning. The main advantage with the Baseline suspension set up is the adjustability that I now have if needed. Plus the Baseline kit includes a Panhard bar and the components actually strengthen the rear axel assembly.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
What rear springs are you using? I installed the Team Z rears.
It's my understanding that you run dropped lowers if the car sits low and relocated uppers if the car sits closer to stock height? That's interesting that you run both.
I have the Strange single adjustable shocks with UPR double adjustable uppers and non adjustable lowers with heims on body side. I'm running 26" tires also.
I'll have to check out Kevin's site. I didn't know he offered a panhard bar. Does it serve a purpose on the track or more for the street? Can one run tailpipes with it?
 

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Unfortunately, the picture that is on Baseline Suspensions website of their Outlaw kit do not show the panhard bar. It attaches from the left hand rear upper control arm mount at the body and goes over to the right had side upper control arm mount at the rear differential. The rear springs I run are from HyperCoil, and I use an adjustable upper spring perch. When I get a moment, I will run out tot the garage and take a few photos.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Thanks. I appreciate it. I'm sitting here bored and figured it's a good time to get an education.
 

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1061794

1061795

1061796

1061797
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for the pics.
That's a lot of suspension components tucked in a small space! Lol. The lower arm spring perches are interesting in how they are welded to the arms. Were they added on?
I did find the panhard bar listed separately on Kevin's site. It's to center the rear according to the site. Did you find that your rearend wasn't centered?
I like the adjustable upper spring perches and have seen them listed on several different sites. Do you find that you have to change ride height for different track conditions?

My son ran this on his Fox and traction was greatly enhanced with great handling. A different way to skin the cat?

Steeda Mustang 5-Link Rear Suspension System (79-04), 555 2501
 

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The lower arms are from Wolfe Racecraft, they come like that. The rear end was always centered, the panhard bar just makes sure it stays that way when the car is launched. One of the ways you can influence I/C is with ride height. I recently changed over to a 275 DR and the taller/wider tires necessitated raising the rear ride height, mainly because when driving over bumps the rear tires wanted to rub a little. They never rubbed during a run because the rear of the car raises up away from the tire during a run.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
I read some posts by Jack Hidley where he mentions that a taller ride height is a good thing for drag racing. He mentioned that the front should not be much lower than the rear for proper weight transfer. This has me picturing the drag cars from the 60's and into the 70's that sat tall. Most were leaf spring cars so different story.
 

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A leaf spring car has less adjustability for I/C than a 4 link car. SO an easy way to make changes is to ride height, and going big in the back and little in the front makes an easy change to I/C, thus the raked look of the old school Pro Stock cars. Compared to today where the whole car is down on the ground for better aero.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
A leaf spring car has less adjustability for I/C than a 4 link car. SO an easy way to make changes is to ride height, and going big in the back and little in the front makes an easy change to I/C, thus the raked look of the old school Pro Stock cars. Compared to today where the whole car is down on the ground for better aero.
Those were great years for racing. I did not know that about the IC change with leaf sprung cars. About 7 years ago; I had the priveledge to meet Bobby Spears and have him as a house guest for the weekend. My son and I took in all of Bobby's stories and track experiences. We drove up to Lake Havasu and he introduced us to a legendary FE builder who had a collection of race memorabilia, vintage race parts and some awesome builds in the shop. Hearing those two talk about all of the great tracks around the country made us realize how much has been lost over the years including tracks. I'm hoping that racing will come back with a vengeance. We need more and better tracks.
Cool vid:
 
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Discussion Starter #12
So I'm reading up on panhard bars in drag racing and I find this:

Benefits of panhard rod for drag racing?

I guess Kevin changed his mind. Lol

Actually; Kevin's bar is a track locator. Is that different than a panhard?
 

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Discussion Starter #13
A leaf spring car has less adjustability for I/C than a 4 link car. SO an easy way to make changes is to ride height, and going big in the back and little in the front makes an easy change to I/C, thus the raked look of the old school Pro Stock cars. Compared to today where the whole car is down on the ground for better aero.
Speaking of rake....I've noticed many Mustangs with 28" rears have a rake but seem to do well. How does that stance affect the launch?
 

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Here is my car with 28" in the rear and 26" in the front.

1061955


It actually sits fairly level, slight rake. When you measure your car to figure out I/C, all of these things are taken into consideration. So even with a big rake, the adjustments you make for I/C are factoring in that stance.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
That looks nice! Perfect stance.
 

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So I'm reading up on panhard bars in drag racing and I find this:

Benefits of panhard rod for drag racing?

I guess Kevin changed his mind. Lol

Actually; Kevin's bar is a track locator. Is that different than a panhard?
Yes, a Panhard bar is different than a Track Locator, mine is a track locator. They serve the same general purpose (keep the rearend centered) but they mount differently. A PH bar mounts on the inner frame rail and as the rearend moves up/down, the rearend tries to pivot around the frame point. Solid bushings in the control arms AND the PH creates major binding so one of these needs flexible bushings to articulate properly. PH bars are better for road racing than drag racing where there is heavy side loading when turning.
A TL mounts between the control arms and moves up/down in the same plane as the control arms so the rearend doesn't try to move sideways. All solid bushings can be used in the control arms and the TL with no binding. Ladder Bar cars and 4-link cars generally use TL's or wishbones.

ks
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Yes, a Panhard bar is different than a Track Locator, mine is a track locator. They serve the same general purpose (keep the rearend centered) but they mount differently. A PH bar mounts on the inner frame rail and as the rearend moves up/down, the rearend tries to pivot around the frame point. Solid bushings in the control arms AND the PH creates major binding so one of these needs flexible bushings to articulate properly. PH bars are better for road racing than drag racing where there is heavy side loading when turning.
A TL mounts between the control arms and moves up/down in the same plane as the control arms so the rearend doesn't try to move sideways. All solid bushings can be used in the control arms and the TL with no binding. Ladder Bar cars and 4-link cars generally use TL's or wishbones.

ks
I'm trying to picture how the trac bar alleviates binding but I'm at a loss. I'm one of those visual learners. Lol.
If I may ask without offending; how do UPR and Team Z cars set records without a trac bar while using solid bushings?
I'm asking in the interest of learning and not to stir the pot. I see so many different combinations that all seem to work in the end. Some of these guys run the cheapest parts with no double adjustable shocks, coilovers, relocation brackets of any kind,factory springs, KYB shocks, soft bushings, etc.... I'm not referring to the ultra fast guys when it comes to the mismatched and inexpensive suspension but guys running 9's or slower with excellent 60 ft times using stock pick up points.
Inquiring minds want to know. Lol
 
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No offense at all and you always ask great greates, so ask away!
The TL offers a few things for adjusting the suspension but I've never claimed that there is a documented ET advantage with it.

In a nutshell: If you removed one UCA from your car what would the rearend do?

Answer: I would flop over to one side. This can cause each UCA to have a different amount of preload as the rearend tries to sway back and forth while going down the track and during launches. This swaying tends to load each UCA differently thus adding preload to each UCA thus each tire. In reality the rearend can't move b/c the UCA's are at an angle but the change in preload is still present.

A TL completely prevents this from happening and allows each control arm to maintain the exact same amount of preload as the opposite one while launching and going down the track. Most people say they can feel the difference on the top end but I won't claim this.

On all all-out Drag Car car I would certainly use it b/c it equalizes the preload on each UCA thus each rear tire which cannot be achieved without one. This could be beneficial on cars running Limited Traction classes like DR's or are wanting to make sure each tire sees the same amount of loading for the best launches.

Question: How are cars creating great times without relocated UCA's or other fancey stuff?
Answer: GREAT Electronics and A LOT of time testing.

Depending on what the ride height of the car car is, relocated UCA's load the tires more than stock Mustang geometry. This is simply physics/dynamics not advertising hype. So how do racers make stock geometry work? A lot of ways from luck, to designing the chassis to work with it, to electronics, etc and every part of the recipe is to design the car to control tire spin and get it to move down the track the fastest way possible.

Can cars go fast with stock Geometry: YES! Stock geometry and relocated UCA geometry have both been 1.0x 60's and to get a car to do this takes the right parts at the right places and a lot of know-how to make each one work for their car. I'm talking: camshafts, tires, shocks, converter, computer, suspension, track surface, etc. If ONE of these items is off a tad then the car won't perform to it's best.

ks
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Great reply as usual Kevin. Thank you. You've made things much clearer and this really helps the average weekend warrior such as myself. It's often difficult to weed through the countless posts and threads throughout the Mustang community and come out with real answers. Basically; I run into more opinion than fact. I think this is why so many of the same questions pop up time and time again in a forum.
 
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