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I looked at your table. As you note, the Blueprint heads you have have larger volume for the flow compared to the TFS, implying less velocity. We don't know the length of the ports, so we have to make assumptions. But I agree with those who say if you're happy with the performance, then why mess with success? If you're worried about the springs, replace them.
 

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That sounds like really good advice - do you have a web addy for them? When I googled FTI I am getting a Florida company that looks like they specialize in trannies and such. I don't see any info for heads or cams so I think I am in the wrong place! I am not looking for perfection or anything here, but I am old enough to know when I have made major and expensive decisions I have done better when I talked with knowledgeable people first. I would like to do this once and do it right. And thank you for the help!
w.w.w. flowtech induction.com
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
I looked at your table. As you note, the Blueprint heads you have have larger volume for the flow compared to the TFS, implying less velocity. We don't know the length of the ports, so we have to make assumptions. But I agree with those who say if you're happy with the performance, then why mess with success? If you're worried about the springs, replace them.
Thanks. As I said, I have a problem with Chinese castings in my Ford. (I felt BluePrint mislead me about the heads when I bought this engine - it should have been made clear up front. Chinese castings have not had a great track record - and I should have been told. SB Ford Aluminum Cylinder Head - 190cc - Stud Mount - Assembled All the specs on the BluePrint cam I have are from there - but I am uncertain as to who actually engineered these heads and the runners alone aren't evidence of high velocity flow. I know my current combination of factors blows away stock - I don't know what degree of that performance the BluePrint heads play or how much they are leaving on the table.) I don't want the person who cast my heads to be breathing only because a giant net surrounds his massive housing unit to prevent his suicide every night. And yes, I am very pleased with the performance, but if Trick Flow is right and I can bolt on 40 more horsepower minimum and have American heads then I see it as a big win in the grand scheme of things. It's one of those two birds with one stone deals I guess for me. I mean nobody really needs 400 HP in their daily driver. But people still keep modifying them for more power. No one really needs aluminum heads or to stroke their engine, but they still do it. They don't need blowers. They still buy them. I am in bad health, a mechanic who used to race put in my crate motor. When I came to pick it up he said "Oh no. You going for a ride with me first . . ." He took me down a way too short stretch of road near his shop where we topped 140MPH in a shorter stretch than I have done in or on anything other than a bike. He looked like a kid on Christmas morning. So if somebody can say to me I have run those heads or this or that combination and that dog will flat out hunt . . . yeah, I am making my Christmas wish. I don't need blowers or a dragster, but yeah if it lives up to the hype I think those shiny little heads would look pretty under my tree. Why mess with success? I recently got a crate engine that damn near made a former race car driver have to change his shorts. I found out that roads which used to be boring now make me pay attention just to keep it between the ditches. I jumped up 175 HP, with some new heads, new cam, and little higher compression. I don't want to "mess with" that. I would like to find out if there is an actual appreciable gain to be had from slapping on some even better heads, with even better flow and even higher compression. Maybe the heads higher compression and higher flow numbers make 75HP - is it OK for me to want it then? I started this post out quoting a conversation about this very topic from this forum - I tried to find what I needed without bothering anyone to be respectful of people's time. But this 170 CNC ported twisted Flow cam had just came out then apparently and members of this forum were EXCITED about it. The 1st guy saying "53cc [170cc Trick Flow CNC ported] makes them very appealing for a 302-306 setup" and when other guys said it wasn't worth it another member chimed in and said flow numbers aren't everything - there is more to this new cylinder head. The conversation is no longer worth having? The question - now that there should be some hard numbers available on this head the conversation is no longer relevant? Why doesn't that make sense in an automotive forum? I thought people would get it. You know, if you find a type of ice cream ya like, maybe you want to splurge just a bit and upgrade to two scoops next time? Especially if you find out you can get an ever better tasting flavor with a lot less rice . . . And yet few people have even made any attempt to address my questions. The comments I get are like you don't need that or what you have sucks (without saying why - Bubba here was great, and he gave me a website to contact. Their website actually recommends a cam for the Trick Flow 170 heads, good intake and headers - and the cam specs are basically identical to what I currently am running. The cam TRE recommends is a "stage 2" cam that has a lift within .001" of mine, very similar duration and identical separation. Maybe there was a reason no one said "your cam sucks because . . .") I clearly say I don't want Chinese heads and am told why mess with success! If I can find out if these Trick Flows are that much better, and whether the 190 or the 170 would best suit my car, I might even treat myself to some shiny new Trick Flow valve covers just to celebrate after I get them installed. Just because I like them. I wasn't asking whether or not I wanted to replace my Chinese heads - I was asking if someone with experience might be able to tell me would this actually boost my performance like Trick Flow thinks, and which of the two heads would be best. I am not telling you (or anyone else) what to put under your Christmas tree. I guess maybe I am just too old. I worked with computers for years, and was on forums when they were just bulletin boards. I have never got a response like this, or responded to anyone else this way. And I have sat in motorcycle shops sitting around a kerosene heater in the dead of winter talking shop with a guy who still holds drag race records to this day. I was crazy, but you know what - he never looked at me like I was. He got it. (Hell I rode in there one night from 40 miles away on my bike. It was 15%. And I rode it like I had stole it. Thermal underwear, thinsulate clothing, full leathers, apple warmer and no wind shield. I had a car. But I was going to the home of a motorcycle God. 8 or 9 guys were sitting in a circle. The Man was the only one who never asked me why. But he would help me understand how. Why mess with it? Really? For the same reason I still own this machine after 27 years. I mess with it because it is my car. That used to mean something too - your relationship with your car is personal. I mess with it for the same reason I searched out this forum to get answers to technical questions that lay beyond my own experience - and I thought it was a discussion other people might find helpful. There are still a few old school Ford 302's laying around. The answers might help a lot of people who have thought about upgrades. There are a lot of BluePrint engines out there - with owners who might also be in for a rude awaking. But why does anyone mess with it anymore . . . it used to be a thing people did. And people on forums used to enjoy solving problems. It was a place where you could find experience and wisdom. You are motor people right? People used to care about this stuff. Maybe now it is different. Maybe I have outlived any semblance of the world when it made sense to me. One of my first answers here was a joke about all the info I put up. I didn't know it wasn't hardware and specs that were needed - it was my reason for asking what seemed like a straight-forward question perfectly suited to a car forum that needed elaboration in greater detail. Maybe I need to move into one of those buildings with the suicide nets. I don't know if Goody_Seven or Ed Curtis are still around here. They had thousands of posts each on this site. I don't have the privilege of knowing them, but I don't think they would just deflect the question or mock my post. That is the conversation I quoted - I thought it highlighted that this was a good discussion to have. To revisit. Maybe they would have something to say in regards to the actual question. They were speculating about an exciting new product with a lot of potential. Very same product I inquired about. Nobody said to them you don't want that or why mess with what you have. They don't make cars like they used to. That has it pros and cons I guess, but I am partial to old school in a lot of ways. I guess they don't make people like they used to either. This is how I closed my first post here, my hello to this forum: "And thank you very much for your time. A lot of what I do know about cars and motorcycles has come from amazing forums like this." I guess maybe I should have had lower expectations. All I wanted was information guys. I asked for information from someone with more experience that me in this area.



BTW - my "junk" cam is as I said:
.543 Intake / .554 Exhaust
218 Intake / 226 Exhaust Duration @ .050 lift
112 Degree Lobe Separation

Thanks to Bubba, I found the TRE performance website. For the exact 170 head I am looking at by Trick Flow they strongly recommend this cam - saying they are designed to match the Trick Flow heads power band:
Duration @ .050" - 224°/232°
Valve Lift with 1.6 Rocker - .542/.563
Lobe Separation - 112°

Is this cam also "junk"? Because it looks pretty dang similar to me.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
w.w.w. flowtech induction.com
Thanks Bubba. I am calling them Monday if the creek don't rise. And I see a company TRE Performance selling the 170 CNCd heads on their site - and they suggest a "stage 2" cam which is supposed to be a perfect match for the Twisted Flow head in question. The specs are virtually identical to my current cam. I am a little disappointed in most of the responses honestly but I guess I just don't get people anymore. But you have given me helpful information and maybe I can eventually learn what I need to know. I am really grateful for that. I wish Goody_Seven or Ed Curtis were still around - if yall are, I would sure love to hear what you might have to say on the subject. It sounds like they were pretty smart guys and very curious about this head and it's potential when it came out. Peace.
 

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The 170 Trick flow twisted wedge heads were some of the best you could get since 1996 when Saleen slapped them on their S351 Mustangs, and were the hot ticket on street Mustangs nation wide who didn't feel like going through the pain in the ass process of cutting grooves in their pistons.

Today the 190 Trick flow head is what you should get for your 306, period. End of discussion. This isn't 1996 anymore. 170 CC makes 330 max power to the wheels out of the box with super duper custom camshaft of whatever size you can think of without beating your valvetrain to death, or porting stuff.

The 190 Trick Flow 11R will get you the magic 350+ to the wheels with a matching intake/cam. Get the 190 11R and order the right custom cam and intake for your 306 and you WILL make a lot of horsepower to the wheels.

170 cc is going backwards... don't do it unless you promise to play Vanilla Ice every time you take a drive.

 

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Discussion Starter · #26 ·
The 170 Trick flow twisted wedge heads were some of the best you could get since 1996 when Saleen slapped them on their S351 Mustangs, and were the hot ticket on street Mustangs nation wide who didn't feel like going through the pain in the ass process of cutting grooves in their pistons.

Today the 190 Trick flow head is what you should get for your 306, period. End of discussion. This isn't 1996 anymore. 170 CC makes 330 max power to the wheels out of the box with super duper custom camshaft of whatever size you can think of without beating your valvetrain to death, or porting stuff.

The 190 Trick Flow 11R will get you the magic 350+ to the wheels with a matching intake/cam. Get the 190 11R and order the right custom cam and intake for your 306 and you WILL make a lot of horsepower to the wheels.

170 cc is going backwards... don't do it unless you promise to play Vanilla Ice every time you take a drive.

The 170 Trick flow twisted wedge heads were some of the best you could get since 1996 when Saleen slapped them on their S351 Mustangs, and were the hot ticket on street Mustangs nation wide who didn't feel like going through the pain in the ass process of cutting grooves in their pistons.

Today the 190 Trick flow head is what you should get for your 306, period. End of discussion. This isn't 1996 anymore. 170 CC makes 330 max power to the wheels out of the box with super duper custom camshaft of whatever size you can think of without beating your valvetrain to death, or porting stuff.

The 190 Trick Flow 11R will get you the magic 350+ to the wheels with a matching intake/cam. Get the 190 11R and order the right custom cam and intake for your 306 and you WILL make a lot of horsepower to the wheels.

170 cc is going backwards... don't do it unless you promise to play Vanilla Ice every time you take a drive.

Both of the heads I am looking at are already CNC ported. So the 190 . . . one thing that kept bringing me back to the 190 was the fact my existing heads had 190cc runners and I was afraid I may actually lose some of the gains I already gotten over stock. And the 56cc chamber could still give me a slight compression boost. And no, never been a big Vanilla Ice fan . . . that would not do. LOL So you don't think the air velocity and higher compression can make up the difference? Thanks for your input. You sound a little like my niece's old man. He is a really nice car guy from way back so I had to ask him - and he was Trick Flow 190 all the way! But I think he may be biased, every time he gets another Mustang he drops a custom 429 into it and tops it off with a blower . . . I was like you do know this is a 302, right? He is like that's true, you probably need to go up to the 205 intake runner . . . :oops:
 

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Yo
That sounds like really good advice - do you have a web addy for them? When I googled FTI I am getting a Florida company that looks like they specialize in trannies and such. I don't see any info for heads or cams so I think I am in the wrong place! I am not looking for perfection or anything here, but I am you have a web addy for them? When I googled FTI I am getting a Florida company that looks like they specialize in trannies and such. I don't see any info for heads or cams so I think I am in the wrong place! I am not looking for perfection or anything here, but I am old enough to know when I have made major and
Thanks Bubba. I am calling them Monday if the creek don't rise. And I see a company TRE Performance selling the 170 CNCd heads on their site - and they suggest a "stage 2" cam which is supposed to be a perfect match for the Twisted Flow head in question. The specs are virtually identical to my current cam. I am a little disappointed in most of the responses honestly but I guess I just don't get people anymore. But you have given me helpful information and maybe I can eventually learn what I need to know. I am really grateful for that. I wish Goody_Seven or Ed Curtis were still around - if yall are, I would sure love to hear what you might have to say on the subject. It sounds like they were pretty smart guys and very curious about this head and it's potential when it came out. Peace.
Your welcome.
 

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Thanks Bubba. I am calling them Monday if the creek don't rise. And I see a company TRE Performance selling the 170 CNCd heads on their site - and they suggest a "stage 2" cam which is supposed to be a perfect match for the Twisted Flow head in question. The specs are virtually identical to my current cam. I am a little disappointed in most of the responses honestly but I guess I just don't get people anymore. But you have given me helpful information and maybe I can eventually learn what I need to know. I am really grateful for that. I wish Goody_Seven or Ed Curtis were still around - if yall are, I would sure love to hear what you might have to say on the subject. It sounds like they were pretty smart guys and very curious about this head and it's potential when it came out. Peace.
What's the advertised duration for your cam? Glad I was able to help you out. Good luck with your build. 👍
 

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Thanks Bubba. I am calling them Monday if the creek don't rise. And I see a company TRE Performance selling the 170 CNCd heads on their site - and they suggest a "stage 2" cam which is supposed to be a perfect match for the Twisted Flow head in question. The specs are virtually identical to my current cam. I am a little disappointed in most of the responses honestly but I guess I just don't get people anymore. But you have given me helpful information and maybe I can eventually learn what I need to know. I am really grateful for that. I wish Goody_Seven or Ed Curtis were still around - if yall are, I would sure love to hear what you might have to say on the subject. It sounds like they were pretty smart guys and very curious about this head and it's potential when it came out. Peace.
Ed Curtis is still around. I haven't heard from Goody_Seven in quite a while.

Other than that, remember that the internet is the birthplace of lousy advice.
 

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(revised by mod)
Your posts are a bit too lengthy.
(end revision)

Even AFR sells heads that are cast in China now. I am not sure what this track record with castings that you speak of is. Can you link to something? I think you've made up your mind based on nonsense and are now just waiting for people to tell you what you want to hear. Sorry I didn't validate you before. Please do waste your money on a set of new $2000+ heads for a 306 with shorty headers. Happy now? Less disappointed?

Thanks. As I said, I have a problem with Chinese castings in my Ford. (I felt BluePrint mislead me about the heads when I bought this engine - it should have been made clear up front. Chinese castings have not had a great track record - and I should have been told. SB Ford Aluminum Cylinder Head - 190cc - Stud Mount - Assembled All the specs on the BluePrint cam I have are from there - but I am uncertain as to who actually engineered these heads and the runners alone aren't evidence of high velocity flow. I know my current combination of factors blows away stock - I don't know what degree of that performance the BluePrint heads play or how much they are leaving on the table.) I don't want the person who cast my heads to be breathing only because a giant net surrounds his massive housing unit to prevent his suicide every night. And yes, I am very pleased with the performance, but if Trick Flow is right and I can bolt on 40 more horsepower minimum and have American heads then I see it as a big win in the grand scheme of things. It's one of those two birds with one stone deals I guess for me. I mean nobody really needs 400 HP in their daily driver. But people still keep modifying them for more power. No one really needs aluminum heads or to stroke their engine, but they still do it. They don't need blowers. They still buy them. I am in bad health, a mechanic who used to race put in my crate motor. When I came to pick it up he said "Oh no. You going for a ride with me first . . ." He took me down a way too short stretch of road near his shop where we topped 140MPH in a shorter stretch than I have done in or on anything other than a bike. He looked like a kid on Christmas morning. So if somebody can say to me I have run those heads or this or that combination and that dog will flat out hunt . . . yeah, I am making my Christmas wish. I don't need blowers or a dragster, but yeah if it lives up to the hype I think those shiny little heads would look pretty under my tree. Why mess with success? I recently got a crate engine that damn near made a former race car driver have to change his shorts. I found out that roads which used to be boring now make me pay attention just to keep it between the ditches. I jumped up 175 HP, with some new heads, new cam, and little higher compression. I don't want to "mess with" that. I would like to find out if there is an actual appreciable gain to be had from slapping on some even better heads, with even better flow and even higher compression. Maybe the heads higher compression and higher flow numbers make 75HP - is it OK for me to want it then? I started this post out quoting a conversation about this very topic from this forum - I tried to find what I needed without bothering anyone to be respectful of people's time. But this 170 CNC ported twisted Flow cam had just came out then apparently and members of this forum were EXCITED about it. The 1st guy saying "53cc [170cc Trick Flow CNC ported] makes them very appealing for a 302-306 setup" and when other guys said it wasn't worth it another member chimed in and said flow numbers aren't everything - there is more to this new cylinder head. The conversation is no longer worth having? The question - now that there should be some hard numbers available on this head the conversation is no longer relevant? Why doesn't that make sense in an automotive forum? I thought people would get it. You know, if you find a type of ice cream ya like, maybe you want to splurge just a bit and upgrade to two scoops next time? Especially if you find out you can get an ever better tasting flavor with a lot less rice . . . And yet few people have even made any attempt to address my questions. The comments I get are like you don't need that or what you have sucks (without saying why - Bubba here was great, and he gave me a website to contact. Their website actually recommends a cam for the Trick Flow 170 heads, good intake and headers - and the cam specs are basically identical to what I currently am running. The cam TRE recommends is a "stage 2" cam that has a lift within .001" of mine, very similar duration and identical separation. Maybe there was a reason no one said "your cam sucks because . . .") I clearly say I don't want Chinese heads and am told why mess with success! If I can find out if these Trick Flows are that much better, and whether the 190 or the 170 would best suit my car, I might even treat myself to some shiny new Trick Flow valve covers just to celebrate after I get them installed. Just because I like them. I wasn't asking whether or not I wanted to replace my Chinese heads - I was asking if someone with experience might be able to tell me would this actually boost my performance like Trick Flow thinks, and which of the two heads would be best. I am not telling you (or anyone else) what to put under your Christmas tree. I guess maybe I am just too old. I worked with computers for years, and was on forums when they were just bulletin boards. I have never got a response like this, or responded to anyone else this way. And I have sat in motorcycle shops sitting around a kerosene heater in the dead of winter talking shop with a guy who still holds drag race records to this day. I was crazy, but you know what - he never looked at me like I was. He got it. (Hell I rode in there one night from 40 miles away on my bike. It was 15%. And I rode it like I had stole it. Thermal underwear, thinsulate clothing, full leathers, apple warmer and no wind shield. I had a car. But I was going to the home of a motorcycle God. 8 or 9 guys were sitting in a circle. The Man was the only one who never asked me why. But he would help me understand how. Why mess with it? Really? For the same reason I still own this machine after 27 years. I mess with it because it is my car. That used to mean something too - your relationship with your car is personal. I mess with it for the same reason I searched out this forum to get answers to technical questions that lay beyond my own experience - and I thought it was a discussion other people might find helpful. There are still a few old school Ford 302's laying around. The answers might help a lot of people who have thought about upgrades. There are a lot of BluePrint engines out there - with owners who might also be in for a rude awaking. But why does anyone mess with it anymore . . . it used to be a thing people did. And people on forums used to enjoy solving problems. It was a place where you could find experience and wisdom. You are motor people right? People used to care about this stuff. Maybe now it is different. Maybe I have outlived any semblance of the world when it made sense to me. One of my first answers here was a joke about all the info I put up. I didn't know it wasn't hardware and specs that were needed - it was my reason for asking what seemed like a straight-forward question perfectly suited to a car forum that needed elaboration in greater detail. Maybe I need to move into one of those buildings with the suicide nets. I don't know if Goody_Seven or Ed Curtis are still around here. They had thousands of posts each on this site. I don't have the privilege of knowing them, but I don't think they would just deflect the question or mock my post. That is the conversation I quoted - I thought it highlighted that this was a good discussion to have. To revisit. Maybe they would have something to say in regards to the actual question. They were speculating about an exciting new product with a lot of potential. Very same product I inquired about. Nobody said to them you don't want that or why mess with what you have. They don't make cars like they used to. That has it pros and cons I guess, but I am partial to old school in a lot of ways. I guess they don't make people like they used to either. This is how I closed my first post here, my hello to this forum: "And thank you very much for your time. A lot of what I do know about cars and motorcycles has come from amazing forums like this." I guess maybe I should have had lower expectations. All I wanted was information guys. I asked for information from someone with more experience that me in this area.
 

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... I think you've made up your mind ...and are now just waiting for people to tell ...
Unfortunately my conclusion also. It's sort of pointless putting effort into a post when said poster just wants their decision making process reinforced.
 

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Discussion Starter · #32 ·
I think the OP is over-thinking this so much that no matter what he does he will not be happy.
Yeah, so don't ask the question? You know me and my way of "thinking" how, exactly? Who is over thinking this? If you can't answer the question or don't want to - why judge me for asking it? Thanks for your judgement . . .
 

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Discussion Starter · #33 ·
Unfortunately my conclusion also. It's sort of pointless putting effort into a post when said poster just wants their decision making process reinforced.
Actually, I was asking a sincere question and had not made up my mind at all. I was asking for information from someone with experience - not useless judgements regarding the question itself. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. But thanks for your uninformed insinuation based on your own issues.
 

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Discussion Starter · #34 ·
What's the advertised duration for your cam? Glad I was able to help you out. Good luck with your build. 👍
Thanks Bubba 2 . . . my current cam is:
Roller Cam (Made by Crane Cams??):
.543 Intake / .554 Exhaust
218 Intake / 226 Exhaust Duration @ .050 lift
112 Degree Lobe Separation

Both Edelbrock and Trick Flow said it would work really well for the characteristics of their current CNC'd street options, For Edelbrock that is their 185cc runner and for Trick Flow their 170 and 190cc offerings. I threw that in my post bc I felt like it was important to the choice of the heads, but I guess "yours sucks" is about as close to advice that some guys will offer. That is always helpful - "your sucks" without any reason why!! LOL
 

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Discussion Starter · #35 ·
Ed Curtis is still around. I haven't heard from Goody_Seven in quite a while.

Other than that, remember that the internet is the birthplace of lousy advice.
Thank you, and I guess you are right. I used to be so grateful for forums - they were places where you could learn things that you couldn't learn anywhere else. Where guys who knew more than most people ever would shared secrets to things most of us could spend a fortune and decades learning on our own if we had the time and money. Holy crap the world has changed . . . or more accurately people have I suppose.
 

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Thank you, and I guess you are right. I used to be so grateful for forums - they were places where you could learn things that you couldn't learn anywhere else. Where guys who knew more than most people ever would shared secrets to things most of us could spend a fortune and decades learning on our own if we had the time and money. Holy crap the world has changed . . . or more accurately people have I suppose.
Most guys don't use their names on the internet for a reason.
 

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When you make posts like this, nobody is going to read it. And you're the one who is disappointed with us? **** me. Try paragraphs. Or just not typing so much. Try typing every tenth thought or something.

Even AFR sells heads that are cast in China now. I am not sure what this track record with castings that you speak of is. Can you link to something? I think you've made up your mind based on nonsense and are now just waiting for people to tell you what you want to hear. Sorry I didn't validate you before. Please do waste your money on a set of new $2000+ heads for a 306 with shorty headers. Happy now? Less disappointed?

Long tube headers are usually a waste of time if you have a conventional exhaust port.
 

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I'm sorry that you're having a hard time lately Mark. I Hope you can find peace with yourself.
 

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Discussion Starter · #40 ·
Sometimes I truly believe the "search" feature needs to be HUGE!

...as for some of the snide comments, it's to be expected from the forum's professional stalker.
:) Holy cow . . . I am glad to see you are still here. When I first saw the conversation you and Goody were having about the new Trick Flow CNC'd heads I was thinking here are two guys who have learned a few things from their time on this planet. Why I opened my post with your conversation. May I ask if you ever got to play with them in the real world? What might you think about the 170 vs 190? Contrary to the common theme above, I came on here for actual advice. I know just enough to know what I don't know. I could use some real world knowledge from people who still ask questions and have some experience under their belts. I want to make a smart decision - and I know there are people who know things I don't know! And thank you for chiming in . . . I am honored.
 
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