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ProM > anything ever conceived.

Even people with a stock cam can pass emissions, that's incredible.
 

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ProM > anything ever conceived.

Even people with a stock cam can pass emissions, that's incredible.
Stock cam, no egr, no crossover tube in the back of the cylinder heads, and aftermarket heads, intake....I will try an aftermarket camshaft in the near future. I'll let everyone know how it works out....
 

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Stock cam, no egr, no crossover tube in the back of the cylinder heads, and aftermarket heads, intake. The emissions controls are not really needed (except cats) with the Pro-M setup....I will try an aftermarket camshaft in the near future. I'm guessing the cam lobe separation angle has more of an influence on emissions than anything else. I'll let everyone know how it works out....
 

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I was just goofing, but even with the stock ECU you can bias the afr and adjust timing to do the same I'd bet.
 

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I was just goofing, but even with the stock ECU you can bias the afr and adjust timing to do the same I'd bet.
It's possible, I suppose. I couldn't figure out a way to install coil on plug with the stock ECU, though. That, along with the full (and easy) programming features of the Pro-M EFI were huge factors in my selection regarding an aftermarket engine management system.
 

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I keep reading and following the Holley threads for personal amusement. Not to long ago Chris sent me a Holley video on how they set up their flex fuel. what a nightmare.

We are spoiled. let's leave it at that.
 

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Pro-M setup seems quite nice and people seem loyal to their purchase. It's all good. If I used a Pro-M, I'd have to use my custom 95mm slot MAF, which is fine though there's an assumption as to the accuracy of the MAF curve. The Holley HP setup seems to be doing a good job of taming the lumpy cam in my 427, I learned that the areas of high dilution (low RPM cruise where there's a lot of overlap) need a richer commanded mixture to minimize misfires. I wonder how the Pro-M deals with this 'automatically'?
 

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Pro-M setup seems quite nice and people seem loyal to their purchase. It's all good. If I used a Pro-M, I'd have to use my custom 95mm slot MAF, which is fine though there's an assumption as to the accuracy of the MAF curve. The Holley HP setup seems to be doing a good job of taming the lumpy cam in my 427, I learned that the areas of high dilution (low RPM cruise where there's a lot of overlap) need a richer commanded mixture to minimize misfires. I wonder how the Pro-M deals with this 'automatically'?
You do not have to use a MAF with the Pro-M and if you needed a slot style Chris sells those as well.
 

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You do not have to use a MAF with the Pro-M and if you needed a slot style Chris sells those as well.
Odd, Pro-M REALLY emphasizes the advantage of using a MAF compared to "those other guys". I have a 95mm slot MAF with a curve that calculated using a 6th order polynomial scaling equation, then dialed it in slightly with my A9L; why would I buy one? Because Holley is widely used, I was able to put together a Holley HP setup for $1355.98. If I had to add a MAF to the Pro-M purchase, it adds up to essentially 2 times as much money. I was curious about how the Pro-M dials in high-dilution mixtures 'automatically'. Not really interested in marketing.
 

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I'm not really a tuner myself, but I know my car. If you were to look at the MAF transfer volts there are 20 test points between O and 2.5 volts.
 

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Odd, Pro-M REALLY emphasizes the advantage of using a MAF compared to "those other guys". I have a 95mm slot MAF with a curve that calculated using a 6th order polynomial scaling equation, then dialed it in slightly with my A9L; why would I buy one? Because Holley is widely used, I was able to put together a Holley HP setup for $1355.98. If I had to add a MAF to the Pro-M purchase, it adds up to essentially 2 times as much money. I was curious about how the Pro-M dials in high-dilution mixtures 'automatically'. Not really interested in marketing.
Go to pro-m website, go to the "contact us" link and ask them. They are always happy to answer technical questions. The programming of the pro-m efi was created by Sam Guido and Ken Burkman (the same powertrain software engineers that developed the software for OEM Ford cars/trucks from 1995 to about 2004). Guido and Burkman were also the brains behind the Ford Motorsport Extreme Performance Engine Control System. This isn't the "RPM Extender". This is a product that can run either in concert with or replace the Fox Mustang EEC-IV. It was in the Ford Motorsport catalog from mid to late nineties.
s-l1600.jpg
 

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Ive run about a dozen cams with it. From stock to something with over 300 in duration and .600 lift. I wish i could give you a more technical answer into the working of it but i can tell you a proper fuel system, injector data, a maf transfer function is all ive needed so far. I let the system do the rest.
people who have the Holley really want to learn the system. test driving, tweaking, learning what works and what doesn't. you guys put in a lot of hours. but the more you learn about your system, the faster you can get stuff dialed in proficiently. I never wanted to learn. thats why i choose pro m.

for the price, it was worth it. My time is expensive.
 

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Discussion Starter #194 (Edited)
I was curious about how the Pro-M dials in high-dilution mixtures 'automatically'.
Hey Cougar5.0,
Basically, you had some issues with your combo misfiring and bucking or whatever at low rpm. You entered some values until you got it to run without issue.......congratulations.

Basic engine management is A/F ratio and spark advance. The proper value for each of these can only be determined if we have an accurate value for Load. Load is the air mass being ingested by the engine divided by the engine’s potential for air mass. The ingested air mass is obtained in real time from the output of the mass airflow sensor. With the Pro-M EMS the Load calculations are done for you, so no need for you to input values to make it run correctly. The Pro-M EMS needs the user to input the following values and it will take care of the rest. Myself or John could go into more detail but this is it in a nutshell.

1. Engine’s bore and stroke

2. Number of cylinders

3. MAF transfer function

I hope this helps
Michael Plummer
 

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Hey Cougar5.0,
Basically, you had some issues with your combo misfiring and bucking or whatever at low rpm. You entered some values until you got it to run without issue.......congratulations.

Basic engine management is A/F ratio and spark advance. The proper value for each of these can only be determined if we have an accurate value for Load. Load is the air mass being ingested by the engine divided by the engine’s potential for air mass. The ingested air mass is obtained in real time from the output of the mass airflow sensor. With the Pro-M EMS the Load calculations are done for you, so need for you to input values to make it run correctly. The Pro-M EMS needs the user to input the following values and it will take care of the rest. Myself or John could go into more detail but this is it in a nutshell.

1. Engine’s bore and stroke

2. Number of cylinders

3. MAF transfer function

I hope this helps
Michael Plummer
Yes, I get all that. I started tuning (TwEECer) my 306 in ~2004, then later added a Kenne Bell supercharger and eventually a custom 95mm slot MAF (I machined the unit from schedule 40 4" aluminum pipe using a lathe and milling machine.) I was able to create a 6th (just checked, it was actually a 10th) order polynomial equation to simulate the MAF function versus diameter which allowed me to scale the curve to any diameter MAF tube (I cracked the HPX spreadsheet.) You should remember me for my home-made meth injection setup that I talked about in the Supercharger forum.

The problem with light-load, low RPM (like ~1500, 4th or 5th gear) high cam overlap areas, and especially with shorter-runner, large cross-section intakes like one needs on a 427w is reversion. This causes the mixture in any given cylinder to be of unknown air/fuel ratio. This creates random misfires and can lead to mild bucking. The situation can be exaggerated during light throttle tip-ins. After reading around, I learned that people often deal with this by commanding a richer mixture in these areas (say 13-13.5:1.) Obviously I couldn't do this easily with the OEM A9L EEC. This was easy with the HP whereas I could 'see' the area of concern in the datalog and lower the target A/F ratio in this area. It works well. For reference, I see ~8" vacuum at 900 RPM idle. I was just curious if the Pro-M does this automatically, or if one would have to tweak this area similarly.
 

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Discussion Starter #196
It makes no difference what engine you are using. It makes no difference what heads and intake you have, what cam(s) you use, what you have for an exhaust system, or how many times you decide to change these things. It doesn’t even matter if you add forced induction or change the amount of boost on existing forced induction application. If the PCM knows your displacement, RPM, and your ingested air mass, it knows Load… and if it knows Load, then it can accurately control fueling and spark advance.

I hope this helps
Michael Plummer
 

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It makes no difference what engine you are using. It makes no difference what heads and intake you have, what cam(s) you use, what you have for an exhaust system, or how many times you decide to change these things. It doesn’t even matter if you add forced induction or change the amount of boost on existing forced induction application. If the PCM knows your displacement, RPM, and your ingested air mass, it knows Load… and if it knows Load, then it can accurately control fueling and spark advance.

I hope this helps
Michael Plummer
Please correct me if I am wrong here, There is no way for the PCM to know how exactly how much air is being ingested into the engine without some direct way of measuring it (mass air sensor). Speed density seems to work great until something in the engine (displacement, fuel injector size, camshaft profile, etc) changes. Then the car's owner has to figure out (by trial and error, or dyno time ($$$$$ per hour)) how to adjust the "volumetric efficiency" to get the car running correctly. This is what makes the Pro-M EFI a better choice for over the other guys. I've never used the Holley EFI, but I have watched youtube videos of "experts" use the Holley kit and they spend a lot more time fiddling with their systems to get things right than I did with the my Pro-M system. Am I going in the right direction with this? ;)
 

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speed density on stock form you mean.
So Speed Density in aftermarket form is different? Would a speed density system like Holley be able to adjust to the changes or can the Holley system automatically compensate for the changes (without dyno time or some other calibration method). I'm not really that familiar with the Holley, I just know people like it because it's cheaper and doesn't "require" a mass air sensor (at least those are the most common reasons that Holley enthusiasts give when they say Holley is "better" than Pro-M EFI)..
 

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vehicles that come from the factory with sd I mean. sorry.

if you have a competent tuner working with an aftermarket speed density, im fairly certain you will get the same results as" joe bolt in" who put in a pro m system.

But count on the sd system for a lot of tweaking, reworking, dyno time, your own time, time lost, phone calls to techs (lol) etc.

the pro m is just A Lot more user friendly to set up. no figuring out wiring, no finding connectors no hacking up harnesses etc

take the old harness out, install with a new pretty much oem harness since it was made for your specific year.

You are basically retrofitting the car for obd2. as if ford took back all mustangs and installed the pro m as an update.
 
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