[Mark O'Neal]

Bear in mind, when you're looking at heads that the actual "design" is pretty much dictated by the application. The combustion chamber is "designed" by the sweep of the valves. The ports are where the ports are, though they can be moved a little....and you can alter the shape a bit, depending on where you put your water jackets. you put the plug as high as you can....and you're all done.

It's like people telling me they designed their pistons. You can alter the rings and lands, Compression height and the compression ration..and those are dictated. There is no "designing" involved. It's just math. As long as nothing crashes into anything else the part will work just pine.

 

[Quik5oh]

That's definitely two different castings. There may only be two, but I quit looking for clarity with Chinese parts a long time ago. The fact that they lie a lot is compounded by the Americans that bring parts in amd lie a lot. Trying to figure out what's what with any real accuracy will just drive you nuts.

I just look at the parts and the purveyors of those parts and go from there. So........ProMAXX yes....ProComp no. I have confidence that what Jason tells me is actually the case, as he knows it, and I have confidence that anyone at ProComp will lie to me when the truth makes more sense.

My apologies for any confusion, Mark. The pic above is actually the ebay Chinese head next to a TFS 170. I hear ya though... Seeking detailed clarity relative to import stuff can be futile, however, it would be helpful to know if the ebay Chinese heads that I've posted pics of are the same or very similar to the ProHeader castings that Ed has.

The ProMaxx heads that I have are quite nice so I agree with you about Jason and Co.

 

[williamhall]

Like to see some of these Proheader heads on a flow bench. These are the same castings Skip White is using (NKB). I don't necessarily trust his bench test though....Or his claim of using top notch Comp hardware.

 

[rednotch]

To the OP, hopefully this information is helpful and not getting off track with your original thread.

Its fine by me as it is what I was asking about more info on other cheap budget heads....

They Ebay heads you got look to be the same casting as mine , I bought mine from someone else and paid a bit less. A buddy also bought the skip white heads. They use what they claim in the ad, its the same casting with cheap comp 987 springs and the cheaper pbm raceline valves, no guide plates or studs but come with head bolt bushings like mine did. There all china knock offs of darts pro1 castings. The relocated plug angle may be an issue with some header flanges but its an easy fix compared to say a P head. You could build the bare castings to the nkb specs pretty damn cheap if you time it right with ebay codes and stick with lower end parts from say elign that are just as good as the comp and pbm stuff skip put in those heads.. They should take any port the darts will. There are a coupe shops who sell the sbc version of this head with dart cnc programs, The ford stuff is much harder to find info on though but if you look you can find a few places.


I have 1262r style gaskets for mine but I bought them with plans on porting and tend to trim all my gaskets to work. Didn't flow them as cast but they went mid 280's on the intake and high 180's on the exhaust on my buddies bench after some port work. I'm sure a pro could do much better but they should work fine for my goals with the car. Just a cheap beater to play around with NA and on a small shot of nitrous at the track and use as a driver here and there.

I Used + .100 sbc valves, Lunati 73925k2 spring kit, Afr split guide plates, ARP 7/16" rocker studs and a shims kit to set the install height. Mostly grabbing stuff when ebay codes popped up to keep the costs down. I have a decent amount of time in cleaning them up along with supplies most people won't have but a lot less then buying a new tfs or afr head. if you have to pay labor they won't be so cheap. There cheap enough to play around with on DIY budget builds if your able to work them over yourself. If mine hold up I'll be more then happy with them. Don't get me wrong I have and still own better heads but this was for my project "sloppy seconds". Its all cheap and used parts going in a GT that someone hacked up with miss matched parts well before I got it.

 

[Quik5oh]

Like to see some of these Proheader heads on a flow bench. These are the same castings Skip White is using (NKB). I don't necessarily trust his bench test though....Or his claim of using top notch Comp hardware.

I have a pair of Proheader bare castings on their way and I'm planning on getting one of these set up Flow Bench | Air Flow Measurement | Air Flow Analysis so I can flow them against a couple other heads that I have. It won't be anytime soon, but most likely this summer. My plan is to flow them against brand new TFS FAC 170cc heads, an ebay head that I picked up (which I'll compare to the Proheader castings as they may be identical), ProMaxx 9175 heads (which appear to be the same casting as Edelbrock E-Streets), and possibly an AFR 185 (most likely #1388), all heads will be box stock.

This will simply be a fun, learning experience for me as a hobbyist. I don't have a SuperFlow SF-750 or anything along those lines so the results will be the results. I do have a friend that has run many "professional grade" flowbenches, so he'll help me get my hobbyist grade flowbench operating as accurately as possible... heck, maybe we'll even do a test against a $25K Superflow and my $1.2K hobby grade bench

 

[rednotch]

I have a pair of Proheader bare castings on their way and I'm planning on getting one of these set up Flow Bench | Air Flow Measurement | Air Flow Analysis so I can flow them against a couple other heads that I have. It won't be anytime soon, but most likely this summer. My plan is to flow them against brand new TFS FAC 170cc heads, an ebay head that I picked up (which I'll compare to the Proheader castings as they may be identical), ProMaxx 9175 heads (which appear to be the same casting as Edelbrock E-Streets), and possibly an AFR 185 (most likely #1388), all heads will be box stock.

This will simply be a fun, learning experience for me as a hobbyist. I don't have a SuperFlow SF-750 or anything along those lines so the results will be the results. I do have a friend that has run many "professional grade" flowbenches, so he'll help me get my hobbyist grade flowbench operating as accurately as possible... heck, maybe we'll even do a test against a $25K Superflow and my $1.2K hobby grade bench

I'm pretty sure the pro header will be the same as the ebay head. all of the heads I've seen have the same style date batch coding stamped into them by the deck like your picture show and all have the same chamber with the plug closer to the exhaust valve.. The nkb heads also had a 4404 etched in the valve cover rail which is RPC's part number for it so its getting hawked by a lot of importers, even Liberty and blue print use this casting. The truth is their is a ton of "reboxing" in the performance industry for some parts. They should all be the same, maybe one or the other may take the time to clean up the ports entries like you see on the promaxxx castings you have which looks to be the same quality import casting. Mine had a decent amount of meat in the pushrod pinch to open the port wider but I didn't port them to any gasket size.

 

[Quik5oh]

Its fine by me as it is what I was asking about more info on other cheap budget heads....

They Ebay heads you got look to be the same casting as mine , I bought mine from someone else and paid a bit less. A buddy also bought the skip white heads. They use what they claim in the ad, its the same casting with cheap comp 987 springs and the cheaper pbm raceline valves, no guide plates or studs but come with head bolt bushings like mine did. There all china knock offs of darts pro1 castings. The relocated plug angle may be an issue with some header flanges but its an easy fix compared to say a P head. You could build the bare castings to the nkb specs pretty damn cheap if you time it right with ebay codes and stick with lower end parts from say elign that are just as good as the comp and pbm stuff skip put in those heads.. They should take any port the darts will. There are a coupe shops who sell the sbc version of this head with dart cnc programs, The ford stuff is much harder to find info on though but if you look you can find a few places.


I have 1262r style gaskets for mine but I bought them with plans on porting and tend to trim all my gaskets to work. Didn't flow them as cast but they went mid 280's on the intake and high 180's on the exhaust on my buddies bench after some port work. I'm sure a pro could do much better but they should work fine for my goals with the car. Just a cheap beater to play around with NA and on a small shot of nitrous at the track and use as a driver here and there.

I Used + .100 sbc valves, Lunati 73925k2 spring kit, Afr split guide plates, ARP 7/16" rocker studs and a shims kit to set the install height. Mostly grabbing stuff when ebay codes popped up to keep the costs down. I have a decent amount of time in cleaning them up along with supplies most people won't have but a lot less then buying a new tfs or afr head. if you have to pay labor they won't be so cheap. There cheap enough to play around with on DIY budget builds if your able to work them over yourself. If mine hold up I'll be more then happy with them. Don't get me wrong I have and still own better heads but this was for my project "sloppy seconds". Its all cheap and used parts going in a GT that someone hacked up with miss matched parts well before I got it.

Cool, thanks for the feedback - great information. I'm playing around with these Chinese ebay heads for the exact same reason you are, just a basic setup to teach myself with I like the idea of trying my hand at porting, assembly, and setup on a $180 casting vs. a big $$$ bare AFR, TFS, etc... If I mess up or they flow like crap after I play amateur hobbyist porter, I'll just run them through my bandsaw to get a closer look and then hang them on my garage wall as a conversation piece or donate them to someone that wants to mess with them. I am planning to have my machine shop look them over them before I actually install them on an engine, I don't want to grenade an engine unnecessarily because of an amateur mistake!

I'm learning about all of the various valvetrain details that one needs to know for my Chinese beater head project... What is a +.100 valve? What are the part numbers for your valves and AFR guide plates? What shims are you using? I do have a valve spring micrometer and I've verified installed valve height on various name brand heads in the past so at least I can do that with confidence!

I picked up a couple Ferrea 5000 series 11/32 2.02 intake and 1.60 exhaust valves (5.06" in length) to test with, Comp 987 springs, Comp 740 retainers, Comp 611 (10 degree) locks, and some Comp 529 Viton valve seals. The top of my valve guides do measure .530-.531 which are what the valve seals require, so I may not need to have them machined. The Ferrea valves seem to fit near perfect in the bronze guides on my ebay head, however, I'm learning about necessary clearances, valve guide prep, setup, etc. I have ARP 7/16" studs.

I'm sure the experienced folks like Mark, Ed, etc. are reading this, with popcorn in hand, thinking... I can wait to see the results and a video of this guys engine carnage after he puts his amateur skills to work on these Chinese heads! :wink2:

 

[rednotch]

Cool, thanks for the feedback - great information. I'm playing around with these Chinese ebay heads for the exact same reason you are, just a basic setup to teach myself with I like the idea of trying my hand at porting, assembly, and setup on a $180 casting vs. a big $$$ bare AFR, TFS, etc... If I mess up or they flow like crap after I play amateur hobbyist porter, I'll just run them through my bandsaw to get a closer look and then hang them on my garage wall as a conversation piece or donate them to someone that wants to mess with them. I am planning to have my machine shop look them over them before I actually install them on an engine, I don't want to grenade an engine unnecessarily because of an amateur mistake!

I'm learning about all of the various valvetrain details that one needs to know for my Chinese beater head project... What is a +.100 valve? What are the part numbers for your valves and AFR guide plates? What shims are you using? I do have a valve spring micrometer and I've verified installed valve height on various name brand heads in the past so at least I can do that with confidence!

I picked up a couple Ferrea 5000 series 11/32 2.02 intake and 1.60 exhaust valves (5.06" in length) to test with, Comp 987 springs, Comp 740 retainers, Comp 611 (10 degree) locks, and some Comp 529 Viton valve seals. The top of my valve guides do measure .530-.531 which are what the valve seals require, so I may not need to have them machined. The Ferrea valves seem to fit near perfect in the bronze guides on my ebay head, however, I'm learning about necessary clearances, valve guide prep, setup, etc. I have ARP 7/16" studs.

I'm sure the experienced folks like Mark, Ed, etc. are reading this, with popcorn in hand, thinking... I can wait to see the results and a video of this guys engine carnage after he puts his amateur skills to work on these Chinese heads! :wink2:

+.100 refers to the installed height, 5.06 length ferrea would be +.150 installed height I think? I used ferrea +.100 valves but don't know the part number off hand. the comp 987 springs are a little to weak for what I wanted to do that is why I went with the Lunati Lsx style dual spring kit.. It included every thing but a shim kit for under $200 using an ebay code when I got it. Seals in the kit fit the guides without any machine work. AFR 6103 for the Adjustable Guide Plates .. shims where a hardened kit that fit the pocket in various thicknesses my buddy had laying around.

Honestly if have the tools to check things its not hard to build heads... porting is a skill though. something I need to work on lol I just don't have the budget to pay some one for it on something that will ended up in two pieces when I get to greedy lined up against a junk ls with a hair dryer on it one too many times. I all ready have one car that's a money pit, don't need another one. There is a reason a pro shop charges what they do for heads they rework, Its a lot of labor and they know what works. plus good valvetrain parts are not cheap.

 

[williamhall]

Rednotch how much grinding did you do to hit those numbers? Might get one of these to play around with.

 

[rednotch]

Rednotch how much grinding did you do to hit those numbers? Might get one of these to play around with.

mostly bowl work and opening the pushrod pinch with a few burrs, then cleaning up the rest with cartridge rolls Not a whole lot of material removal but I took my time and went slow, they where all around 190cc when done, they are closer to 180 as cast. figure someone who knows what there doing could get better numbers esp on the exhaust. I really didn't reshape the port just cleaned it up, opened up the pinch a bit, entry face and spent most of the work on the bowl...... The dart head they are copied from are offered up to 225cc for a cnc'd version with a sleeved pushrod pinch so there should a lot of room to grow from what I did. mine will work for what I'm doing with them. a couple shops offer these castings ported or cnc'd for about the cost box stock afr 185's as a budget option but its a lot more work then what I did to mine and geared towards a serious build.

 

[Quik5oh]

mostly bowl work and opening the pushrod pinch with a few burrs, then cleaning up the rest with cartridge rolls Not a whole lot of material removal but I took my time and went slow, they where all around 190cc when done, they are closer to 180 as cast. figure someone who knows what there doing could get better numbers esp on the exhaust. I really didn't reshape the port just cleaned it up, opened up the pinch a bit, entry face and spent most of the work on the bowl.

Have any pictures? Really curious to see how they came out :grin2:

 

[Oldbutnew]

I went through this "decision tree" last summer to replace a pair of 20 year old Performer RPM's that had stripped a plug hole. (Long story short: When I pulled it off to do the fix, I found other issues that led me to replace them.)

I went with the Promaxx non-cnc 175 (180?) bare heads. I used the low-mile Manley and Comp hardware off my old heads. The castings were, frankly outstanding. The core shift was less than the old U.S. cast heads I took off. (1262 S3 gaskets). Same with the machining. The guides were straight and right at .0018" - .0020" and the valve job required a very minor touch to come right in. I did have to touch the spring seats to make room for my Comp spring cups, but again, it was a minor touch up. I made dust, not chips.

This is a 10:1 EFI 331 street cruiser that put 328 / 352 to the tire. I did not re-verify dyno numbers, but I can tell you the car sure did not lose anything!
I paid $700 for the pair delivered. I think they are an excellent choice for a budget-minded build. That said, I can't say anything about the hardware if you buy complete heads. And I would never recommend nor install fully-assembled heads without completely going through them.

 

[Mark O'Neal]

I forgot who they told me they got their valves from, but I remember it was okay with me. The retainers are made by the same company that makes Straub's. They're in Alabama.

Hardware is pretty decent.

 

[rednotch]

Found this on youtube… The blueprint casting looks to be identical to the rpc/ nkb/ proheader/ebay head. But I haven't seen them in person, If the dyno numbers are legit that's not bad for a budget head as cast.

 

[bkm]

Is there enough deck on these heads to mill for a little more compression on a stock short block? Nothing crazy, but around 10.1 or so?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[Quik5oh]

Is there enough deck on these heads to mill for a little more compression on a stock short block? Nothing crazy, but around 10.1 or so?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

I can measure. What is the best/proper way to measure deck thickness? Knowledge deficient here.

 

[Oldbutnew]

Is there enough deck on these heads to mill for a little more compression on a stock short block? Nothing crazy, but around 10.1 or so?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

The ProMaxx advertise .625" deck thickness. I think you can cut enough off of them to regret it later.

 

[rednotch]

Is there enough deck on these heads to mill for a little more compression on a stock short block? Nothing crazy, but around 10.1 or so?

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

yes you can mill them down a bit, not as thick as say afr but plenty of meat AFD out of AU who makes a nice Cleveland Head also sells this casting for windsor motors and offer them milled to 55cc. There are set up for 2.02 valve so on a stock piston you would have to watch the cam timing or notch them depending on what your goals are..

https://www.afdheads.com/collection...90cc-windsor-complete-c2-alloy-cylinder-heads

Weingartner Racing also offers them hand ported for a very decent price for the work he does.
Weingartner Racing
https://www.facebook.com/permalink....9&id=200394562108&comment_tracking={"tn":"O"}

 

[bkm]

yes you can mill them down a bit, not as thick as say afr but plenty of meat AFD out of AU who makes a nice Cleveland Head also sells this casting for windsor motors and offer them milled to 55cc. There are set up for 2.02 valve so on a stock piston you would have to watch the cam timing or notch them depending on what your goals are..



https://www.afdheads.com/collection...90cc-windsor-complete-c2-alloy-cylinder-heads



Weingartner Racing also offers them hand ported for a very decent price for the work he does.

Weingartner Racing

https://www.facebook.com/permalink....9&id=200394562108&comment_tracking={"tn":"O"}

I think for a guy like me that was going to dump $ into a set of P heads that I have, these are a decent alternative as long as you know what they are going into it. If you do like you did and buy quality stuff here and there with coupons and such, they look like they'll be ok.


Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

 

[rednotch]

This is the one I was talking about seeing on facebook, they posted some more info, its from Track Boss Products facebook page. and they got 465 HP 435 TQ on a as they put it "347 Econo build"

60cc chambers
185cc intake
8mm valve stem size.
2.02/1.60 valve sizes
saying $775 bare and starting at $950 complete.


If its as decent of a casting as the pro-header heads I got that would be a nice budget head to play with.

Looks like flo-tek is selling the 205cc as cast version of the head pictured in post 29 now called "the hammer " https://www.flotekheads.com/product/small-block-ford-205cc-60cc/