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Discussion Starter #41
HYBRED, I should have been a little more clear maybe, I did not do the smoke test through the PCV valve, but through the clean air inlet to the crankcase on the PCV system. The hose that connects from the intake tube by the IAT sensor to the oil fill neck.
 

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HYBRED, I should have been a little more clear maybe, I did not do the smoke test through the PCV valve, but through the clean air inlet to the crankcase on the PCV system. The hose that connects from the intake tube by the IAT sensor to the oil fill neck.
No, I understood what you meant.

Now, did you route the smoke into the valve cover (pcv inlet), or route it backwards into the intake tube?

Or just tee into that hose?

You should have the throttle body wide open if you’re going backwards into the intake tube, but the smoke will still escape through the air filter. I don’t think that’s a really good way of doing it.

You usually inject the smoke some where behind the throttle body.
 

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Discussion Starter #43
I blocked the intake tube with a rag between the intake tube and MAF, and I propped the TB wide open. Yes smoke routed into the intake tube of course. I did this at this location to also leak test the intake tube (IAT connection, etc).
 

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Discussion Starter #44
I know this has become a sort of rabbit hole here, but I think I'm actually getting somewhere now. I started the car up cold today and shot each exhaust runner with a temp gun and #3 and #7 are cold. Say 100-200 F vs the others were more like 400-500F. I then decided to check engine codes and do the cylinder balance test with it cold, as I have only done it fully warmed up. Sure enough, I got 3 flashes and 7 flashes after the cylinder balance test. It was also popping/misfiring/backfiring badly during the test. It was also running at about 1500rpm vs the normal 2000rpm for the test. At least now I have suspect cylinders to look at.

Additionally, the 212 code that I thought was set because I had pulled the spout to check base timing keeps coming back. I cleared codes and unhooked battery negative cable overnight and it returned. So I need to check some wiring there when I get time. I don't think this would cause this issue, though...

I have new codes, also, since I ran them when the engine was cold and having it's running issue. Below are all the current codes. 212 returned. 116 (ECT out of self test range) is new. Is it just set becasue I ran the test without the car warm?

KOEO
327
564

CM
212
327

KOER
116
314
311
327

Cyl Bal Test
3
7

So, I'm thinking that it appears that #3 and #7 are either not getting fuel or spark while the engine is cold. Is there something common to both of them? Could something like the TFI ignition module be the culprit and not working properly when cold? Could the fuel injectors be sticking and not firing when cold? I know this is still not solved but I have some hope restored now that I have a slightly narrower path to head down...

Also, I had taken the ECM out and apart to inspect and look for any burnt spots, etc. It literally looked brand new lol. I don't think there is any physical issue with the ECM.
 

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how hard is to check spark at the end of the plug wire when its running?
 
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Discussion Starter #46
Oh yeah, I'm going to check spark on those cylinders next. I really didn't have time to work on it today, I just took 5 minutes to go ahead and pull those codes today. This will be a very busy week for me at work, so may be next weekend but I'll post back what I find.
 

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Discussion Starter #47
Just checked for spark this morning and #3 and #7 have no spark (while warming up, anyway). I'm gonna try swapping plugs this weekend and see if it follows.
 

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Discussion Starter #48
So had a little time today and swpped a copule plugs and wires, and a new cap/rotor. No change, so all that's ruled out I believe. Also took the TFI ignition module to autozone and they ran it like a dozen times and it passed every time (I didn't really think this was the issue anyway). I think the PIP is bad in the distributor, I looked at the notched wheel and one notch has a lot of corrossion. I'm not sure what next troubleshooting steps I could try other than changing out the distributor.
 

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scope

and look at waves

did you use a spark tester and test energy out put?

you can buy a new shutter wheel from pro m
 

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Discussion Starter #50
Yeah the scope is beyond my abilities at this point.

No I used a test light. Have no light on 3 and 7 when cold, I swapped it onto another cylinder to verify the light works and it works fine on another cylinder. The 3 & 7 also was confirmed when doing the cylinder balance test when cold (I had only been doing it when fully warmed up, and only had checked spark fully warmed up).

I don't know what else it could be, that would only effect 2 cylinders and only when cold. I know I haven't definitely verified it's the distributor but hoping that's it. I'm not sure what else it could be, there's only so many components...
 

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take it to a diagnostic shop with the tools
 

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Yeah the scope is beyond my abilities at this point.

No I used a test light. Have no light on 3 and 7 when cold, I swapped it onto another cylinder to verify the light works and it works fine on another cylinder. The 3 & 7 also was confirmed when doing the cylinder balance test when cold (I had only been doing it when fully warmed up, and only had checked spark fully warmed up).

I don't know what else it could be, that would only effect 2 cylinders and only when cold. I know I haven't definitely verified it's the distributor but hoping that's it. I'm not sure what else it could be, there's only so many components...
Typically PIP issues show up when the car is hot, not cold. What does the cap look like. Hav you tried swapping ignition wires and injectors to rule them out?
 

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1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8

If the PIP isn’t getting a signal for 3 or 7, maybe that could explain it.
Looking at it with a scope would definitely tell you 100%.
But I’m doubtful of that scenario.

Is there any play in the dizzy shaft?
You are experiencing a misfire on 2 cylinders that follow each other in the firing order. That represents 90° of rotation. Maybe there’s some play that causes the rotor to not deliver spark. 🤷🏻‍♂️
It’s a definite clue that the 2 cylinders are following each other, but I’m not sure what it means yet.
May also be a valve issue(s) on 3 (& 7).
 

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Discussion Starter #54
indy2000, I totally understand your recommendation. As of now, my buddy has asked me to do what I can with it so that's where we are at. He has had it at 2 shops that didn't find the issue and wasted a bunch of his money. I don't know where to even recommend him bringing it...I'm going to do a little more digging with what I can before giving up on it.

Flade, I've swapped wires, plugs, and even a new cap/rotor. Same issue, no spark on 3 and 7 when cold and warming up. The old distributor looks fairly new, the cap wasn't bad either but there was some corrosion buildup on the terminals, so I figured I'd try a new one to see if that fixed it, but it did not. How would swapping injectors be related to a no spark issue?

HYBRED, Not sure on play, I'll check this weekend. I picked up a distributor to try. If these parts don't work out I will return them, that's about where I'm at with it since I don't have the proper diagnostic tools. One of the notches on the PIP has a lot of corrossion. How would a valve issue be related to a no spark issue?

Again, what's odd is it just simply goes away once the car is fully warmed up, like flipping a light switch. Then it idles perfect, runs perfect, passes the cylinder balance test, has spark to all cylinders, etc.

Thanks again for being patient with me and helping out!
 

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Discussion Starter #55
Well, it appears the distributor was the fix. There was a lot of play in the shaft of the old dizzy, and one of the pickups on the PIP had corrosion. The new dizzy also was a little different than the old one, so I'm wondering if they even had the correct distributor on there (maybe it was for a foxbody or something?). Anyway, it ran perfect on cold start, and I even drove it around the block. I'll run it through some more cycles and see how it does.

Thanks for all the help and patience!!!
 

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Discussion Starter #56
The car is running great. I fired it up this morning and withing probably 10 seconds drove it around the block and it ran like a brand new car. I'm very relieved this issue is finally resolved.

I put the car all back together today (I had the instrument cluster apart, ecm out, etc... and one thing that is not working is the 4 way flashers (all turn signals work), and I believe the interior lights are not working (hard to tell in the sun, though). I know for a fact the interior lights worked when I got the car. I believe this may have to do with the damaged contacts at the back of the gauge cluster where the 2 big connectors plug in. This was the same issue I had with the charging issue when the Battery light wasn't coming on (bad connection at the plug on back of cluster). As I worked on fixing that charging issue, unplugging and replugging the cluster in, I had noticed intermittent issues with the 4 way flashers. I probably just need to get a whole new cluster, as I don't know of a way to repair those contacts on the back of the cluster. What do ya'll think about this? Would a new (used) cluster be the best bet? One other possibility is the ignition switch. It is worn out, and the "ears" that you grab with your thumb when you start the car can rotate around even when the key doesn't. Maybe this could be related as well?

Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #57
Nevermind on that last post. Interior lights work, I just couldn't tell in the daylight. And he told me the flashers have some other issue he knew about that was there before. So wasn't me! lol.
 

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are you getting power to the hazard flasher?

hazard flasher is a separate flasher from the turn signal flasher
 

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Discussion Starter #59
I haven't done any troubleshooting. The right signal on the cluster hyperflashes when they are on, but only the right rear bulb flashes. I'm not worried about it, he said it was like that before and he knows why, he didn't ask me to fix that (yet) lol. He said it had something to do with some keyless entry module that he had removed when it failed or something along those lines. Though, it seemed when I was unplugging and plugging in that cluster several times trying to fix the charging system contact issue, the flashers sometimes worked and sometimes didn't...
 

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Discussion Starter #60
Well the car is back with its owner and running great. Just wanted to say thanks again for all the help and being patient with me.
 
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