351 CLEVELAND PRO COMP ALUM HEAD HELP
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> Ok so what is the best intake for a C302 headed 9.5 windsor block?
For C302 heads on a 9.5" deck Windsor block, you have two choices:
1. M-9424-A351
2. M-9424-C351
The A351 was made by Roush for Ford Motorsport and was designed as a
super speedway intake (tall single plane air-gap style intake). It
has a flat carb pad with A/B height of 6.5". Unlike most 351W intakes,
it does not have a built in thermostat water neck and requires an external
thermostat housing.
The C351 was made by Edelbrock for Ford Motorsport. It is a single plane,
air-gap style, race intake but was geared more towards short track use and
has an integral thermostat housing. The C351 is a bit taller than an A351
with an A/B height of 7.36". The intake also has a thin carb pad.
The Roush A351 and B351 intakes share the same casting. The A351
is the proper designation for a 9.5" Windsor version and B351 is
the 9.2" Cleveland version. The only difference is in what machining
they receive. The basic casting is for a 9.5" Windsor or SVO
block and has a rear seal overhang to match. Milling the runner
faces and trimming the rear seal overhang will allow it to fit a
9.2" Cleveland block. Bolt hole pads can be drilled for either
9.2" Cleveland or a 9.5" Windsor blocks or slotted to fit both.
C351 and D351 intakes (made by Edelbrock for Ford Motorsport) are
the same way.
Both intakes are out of production and most have been altered in some
way (milled, ported, epoxied, etc.). It is not uncommon to see an
A351 converted after-the-fact into a B351 (or a C351 into a D351).
You can't trust the stamped or even cast-in part numbers since the
intake may have been converted. Also, be aware there are Yates
intakes that share the same part number as a Yates intake. The A351
was this way. The exact same A351 part number was used for the C302
high port intakes and the Yates C3L intakes. While the intakes look
similar, the port location and shapes are different. Also, it has
been my experience that most sellers do not know which version of the
intake they have so you must measure to be sure. Inspect the flange
thickness and bolt hole locations as they can be a clue as to whether
the intake has been milled and drilled.
If you follow this link, there are pictures of all of the Ford Motorsport
high port intakes:
I had to remove the URL due to the forum software. If you email me, I'll send you the link.
I know I have still have a spare A351 (including a casting that was never
drilled) and I may have a C351. I could probably be talked into to
selling one.
Dan Jones
For C302 heads on a 9.5" deck Windsor block, you have two choices:
1. M-9424-A351
2. M-9424-C351
The A351 was made by Roush for Ford Motorsport and was designed as a
super speedway intake (tall single plane air-gap style intake). It
has a flat carb pad with A/B height of 6.5". Unlike most 351W intakes,
it does not have a built in thermostat water neck and requires an external
thermostat housing.
The C351 was made by Edelbrock for Ford Motorsport. It is a single plane,
air-gap style, race intake but was geared more towards short track use and
has an integral thermostat housing. The C351 is a bit taller than an A351
with an A/B height of 7.36". The intake also has a thin carb pad.
The Roush A351 and B351 intakes share the same casting. The A351
is the proper designation for a 9.5" Windsor version and B351 is
the 9.2" Cleveland version. The only difference is in what machining
they receive. The basic casting is for a 9.5" Windsor or SVO
block and has a rear seal overhang to match. Milling the runner
faces and trimming the rear seal overhang will allow it to fit a
9.2" Cleveland block. Bolt hole pads can be drilled for either
9.2" Cleveland or a 9.5" Windsor blocks or slotted to fit both.
C351 and D351 intakes (made by Edelbrock for Ford Motorsport) are
the same way.
Both intakes are out of production and most have been altered in some
way (milled, ported, epoxied, etc.). It is not uncommon to see an
A351 converted after-the-fact into a B351 (or a C351 into a D351).
You can't trust the stamped or even cast-in part numbers since the
intake may have been converted. Also, be aware there are Yates
intakes that share the same part number as a Yates intake. The A351
was this way. The exact same A351 part number was used for the C302
high port intakes and the Yates C3L intakes. While the intakes look
similar, the port location and shapes are different. Also, it has
been my experience that most sellers do not know which version of the
intake they have so you must measure to be sure. Inspect the flange
thickness and bolt hole locations as they can be a clue as to whether
the intake has been milled and drilled.
If you follow this link, there are pictures of all of the Ford Motorsport
high port intakes:
I had to remove the URL due to the forum software. If you email me, I'll send you the link.
I know I have still have a spare A351 (including a casting that was never
drilled) and I may have a C351. I could probably be talked into to
selling one.
Dan Jones
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5,933 Posts
Found this one also.
http://www.jegs.com/i/World+Products/955/063416/10002/-1
http://www.jegs.com/i/World+Products/955/063416/10002/-1
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44 Posts
so the intake you pm'd me about -the 'b' or 'a' letter looks to have been changed-the inakes port openings are smaller than a 4v head but it also has the scribed lines around each port to match to a cleveland 4v head-so which one is this?because this intake has never been used
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1,021 Posts
Be carefull, that is for Windsor type heads, notice intake bolt holes are at wrong angle. I got a specific/big interest in any/all 4V-A3 type port intakes as i planned for same 4V type intake port layout on my .CB-4V head. design, i would suggest to have a look into this A3 copy/type sm/pc 9.2"/9.5" clevor one...
9.5" https://speedmaster79.com/air-fuel-...?find=ford-small-block-windsor-5-8l-351-12180
9.2" https://speedmaster79.com/air-fuel-delivery/intake-manifolds/?find=ford-cleveland-5-8l-351-12181
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Well my 0.2,
I have some procomps and for me the decision of buying pro comp wasnt really based upon the best amount of hp i could get out of my rig, was simply an inexpensive way of changing my 2v heads on my mild 400.
So reading the flowing numbers of a compared clsed chamber 4v heads to the pro comp heads actually got me excited, why, simple, the fella who posted the info should realize pro comps are 3v heads, 2v intake ports and 4v exhaust ports, where pro comp flowed way better on the exhaust and almost as good on the intake compared to iron 4vs.
Now besides this I have the benefit of aluminium quench, which will let me run a nicer compression ratio.
many people with my boat anchor tend to run 302c heads which are scarse and will cost the same or more as the ricer procomps, so no win there.
And for 1700 vs 800 bare Im not interested in the extra 40 hp you fellas had with the chi, besides 40 more hp on my stock rods and my engine will throw one hehe...
My engine dynoed at hp 417 at 5000 tq 470 at 3500
specs :
408 cid "m" engine
9.7: 1
pro comp 3vs (stock with a bit smoothing on some areas)
custom comp cam extreme energy hydraulic flat tappet 269int 0556 / 280ext 0560 226-230 at 050"
weiand dual plane
eddie 750 performer
Large tube headers
So as you see its a mild conservative engine....
I have some procomps and for me the decision of buying pro comp wasnt really based upon the best amount of hp i could get out of my rig, was simply an inexpensive way of changing my 2v heads on my mild 400.
So reading the flowing numbers of a compared clsed chamber 4v heads to the pro comp heads actually got me excited, why, simple, the fella who posted the info should realize pro comps are 3v heads, 2v intake ports and 4v exhaust ports, where pro comp flowed way better on the exhaust and almost as good on the intake compared to iron 4vs.
Now besides this I have the benefit of aluminium quench, which will let me run a nicer compression ratio.
many people with my boat anchor tend to run 302c heads which are scarse and will cost the same or more as the ricer procomps, so no win there.
And for 1700 vs 800 bare Im not interested in the extra 40 hp you fellas had with the chi, besides 40 more hp on my stock rods and my engine will throw one hehe...
My engine dynoed at hp 417 at 5000 tq 470 at 3500
specs :
408 cid "m" engine
9.7: 1
pro comp 3vs (stock with a bit smoothing on some areas)
custom comp cam extreme energy hydraulic flat tappet 269int 0556 / 280ext 0560 226-230 at 050"
weiand dual plane
eddie 750 performer
Large tube headers
So as you see its a mild conservative engine....
I thought I did realize what I was posting, but I did not realize the "pro comps have 2v intake ports and 4v exhaust ports". Actually Pro Comp does not know this either! However, this is mis-information that some selling these heads have said, but is simple not true. In reality, PC just copied what CHI called their heads. Also, realize the the stock cast iron will out flow the PC on the EXHAUST side at anything below 1/2" lift and of coarse they out flow the PC heads everywhere on the intake side. This will result in about a 20hp loss versus the stock heads with just the flow deficit alone, but with the PC heads at a loose 74cc combustion chamber, you will also be losing a point in compression to boot.
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ATTEN, for those interested DR J's ported a set of the 351C Pro Comp heads with some good #'s... I say again... good bang for the buck...
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3806832#post3806832 ...
("The Pro Comp Cleveland is really really a nice casting. Is it a nice as the CHI, that is a good question. If the CHI is a 10 the procomp is a 9.5. It will flow more air than a chi head when done right. The seat and guides are very good quality and they machine very nice. If you did not know the head was Chinese it would be really hard to tell.")...
2.20 Intake Valve 52* seat 91% throat
80 CC combustion chamber
.100 79 cfm
.200 161 cfm
.300 231 cfm
.400 295 cfm
.500 339 cfm
.600 373 cfm
.700 395 cfm
.800 404 cfm
.900 406 cfm
1.00 409 cfm
Pro Comp Cleveland - Yellow Bullet Forums
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also heard they have gotten even more int flow at .700" (405cfm @.700) out of them now, more than even the other offshore C copies
AND
DR J's said the SM/PC head castings are better/thicker in needed areas (like port/valve bowl area) than the offshore import CHI version...
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3812866#post3812866 ...
("the problem with the CHI head water core. the heads are thin bowl")
:rofl:
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3806832#post3806832 ...
("The Pro Comp Cleveland is really really a nice casting. Is it a nice as the CHI, that is a good question. If the CHI is a 10 the procomp is a 9.5. It will flow more air than a chi head when done right. The seat and guides are very good quality and they machine very nice. If you did not know the head was Chinese it would be really hard to tell.")...
2.20 Intake Valve 52* seat 91% throat
80 CC combustion chamber
.100 79 cfm
.200 161 cfm
.300 231 cfm
.400 295 cfm
.500 339 cfm
.600 373 cfm
.700 395 cfm
.800 404 cfm
.900 406 cfm
1.00 409 cfm
Pro Comp Cleveland - Yellow Bullet Forums
also heard they have gotten even more int flow at .700" (405cfm @.700) out of them now, more than even the other offshore C copies
AND
DR J's said the SM/PC head castings are better/thicker in needed areas (like port/valve bowl area) than the offshore import CHI version...
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=3812866#post3812866 ...
("the problem with the CHI head water core. the heads are thin bowl")
:rofl:
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Wow. I'm building a Cleveland for one of my Fox Bodies at the moment so I just happened onto this thread. TONS of information here.
Boss, if I ever get stuck with some procomp Cleveland parts, I'm hittin' you up. Anyone who's a fan of the Big Lebowski is ok in my book.
However, I've had too many procomp parts come into my shop and need enough work done to them that the folks could have bought the name brand better flowing parts and still been bucks up. Most often with the sbf Windsor heads, none of them have been Cleveland heads fyi.
I don't think anyone would argue that the quality control in China is nowhere near that of companies like Trick Flow, AFR, Edelbrock, or any of the other companies who manufacture here in the USA. So when you buy from Pro Comp, you take a risk. If you buy from a reputable source, Jegs, Summit etc, then you at least have an avenue for returns, but if you buy em from ebay, brother you're stuck with them.
Personally I'm going with the Iron 4V closed chamber heads, they outflow (and make more power out of the box) than pro comp's, keep the compression up, you are not limited to just a few intakes, and you don't have to worry about making custom gaskets or plates to sit between your intake and heads.
For every 3 sets of pro comp heads I've seen (again I've only seen Windsor), 2 of them have needed SERIOUS work just to be bolted on. Ive seen them in the mustang mag's and just from reading the articles they either found a different "pro comp" company than the one who makes the parts I've seen, or they get the "special" heads because the distributors know they are going for magazine coverage. It's common practice in automotive press, nothing new there.
....I'm not looking to pick any fights on here, clearly boss has done his homework on pro comp and anyone looking into using those parts should be glad someone out there has done it. Use his information to save yourself time, the guy is more than willing to help it seems and that is a good thing. So if I ever have someone come in with Cleveland Pro Comp parts....Boss you're The Dude I'm lookin for.
I've never once ripped on a guy for buying pro comp or for wanting to save money on parts. No one gains anything from tearing a fellow hot-rodder down. I'm just as poor as the next guy, so I do understand. I simply offer my advice and let my friends and customers know that they may cost themselves alot more in the long run by not saving up one or two more months to buy the good stuff.
As for me however, I buy American.
Boss, if I ever get stuck with some procomp Cleveland parts, I'm hittin' you up. Anyone who's a fan of the Big Lebowski is ok in my book.
However, I've had too many procomp parts come into my shop and need enough work done to them that the folks could have bought the name brand better flowing parts and still been bucks up. Most often with the sbf Windsor heads, none of them have been Cleveland heads fyi.
I don't think anyone would argue that the quality control in China is nowhere near that of companies like Trick Flow, AFR, Edelbrock, or any of the other companies who manufacture here in the USA. So when you buy from Pro Comp, you take a risk. If you buy from a reputable source, Jegs, Summit etc, then you at least have an avenue for returns, but if you buy em from ebay, brother you're stuck with them.
Personally I'm going with the Iron 4V closed chamber heads, they outflow (and make more power out of the box) than pro comp's, keep the compression up, you are not limited to just a few intakes, and you don't have to worry about making custom gaskets or plates to sit between your intake and heads.
For every 3 sets of pro comp heads I've seen (again I've only seen Windsor), 2 of them have needed SERIOUS work just to be bolted on. Ive seen them in the mustang mag's and just from reading the articles they either found a different "pro comp" company than the one who makes the parts I've seen, or they get the "special" heads because the distributors know they are going for magazine coverage. It's common practice in automotive press, nothing new there.
....I'm not looking to pick any fights on here, clearly boss has done his homework on pro comp and anyone looking into using those parts should be glad someone out there has done it. Use his information to save yourself time, the guy is more than willing to help it seems and that is a good thing. So if I ever have someone come in with Cleveland Pro Comp parts....Boss you're The Dude I'm lookin for.
I've never once ripped on a guy for buying pro comp or for wanting to save money on parts. No one gains anything from tearing a fellow hot-rodder down. I'm just as poor as the next guy, so I do understand. I simply offer my advice and let my friends and customers know that they may cost themselves alot more in the long run by not saving up one or two more months to buy the good stuff.
As for me however, I buy American.
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I got some secret inside tech info for you that many here dont know about that I will reveal to you now...
The Dudes love child with Maude Lebowski is no other than... Julian from the trailer park boys... yes its true!!!
He came to Canada to visit his grandmother, Dudes side (which had a medicinal cannabis store here) and never went back when he found out how good the medical marijuana was here and is now his fathers (the Dude) #1 supplyer. This is all documented in seasons 5-6
lol
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came across another good 730HP pump gas street engine artical using these avenger pc head castings.:salute:
Street Cup - Project Max Effort 0 Popular Hot Rodding Magazine
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btw... ("PC just copied what CHI called their heads")
and that would mean...
... CHI just copied the old American P/S high port Ford 4V-A3/B3/C3 heads.
:salute::salute::salute:
Street Cup - Project Max Effort 0 Popular Hot Rodding Magazine
btw... ("PC just copied what CHI called their heads")
and that would mean...
... CHI just copied the old American P/S high port Ford 4V-A3/B3/C3 heads.
:salute::salute::salute:
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fel pro #1228 4V intake gaskets
thought I would also post this here too again on how the fel pro #1228 4V C int gasket fits on these avg cnc head castings, its No Problem opening up the intake port out to Fords old SVO phase1 / A3 port (2-1/8"H x 1-11/16/"W) on these head castings, even Fords old 2-1/4" tall Boss/TransAm race head port is doable on them, btw the same 4V fel pro gasket is also sitting on sm/pc's sheet alum int at top...
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also with about 1/4" of welding build up on the underside of the intake ports, these heads could be opened up to a factory type 4V Boss intake port, again a good bang for the buck, for a pair of complete A3 type CNC heads for $1500-$1900 imo.
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line marks on center port is where ports can be opened up more to a 1-11/16" wide by 2-1/4" tall Ford Boss Trans-Am port
:salute:
thought I would also post this here too again on how the fel pro #1228 4V C int gasket fits on these avg cnc head castings, its No Problem opening up the intake port out to Fords old SVO phase1 / A3 port (2-1/8"H x 1-11/16/"W) on these head castings, even Fords old 2-1/4" tall Boss/TransAm race head port is doable on them, btw the same 4V fel pro gasket is also sitting on sm/pc's sheet alum int at top...
also with about 1/4" of welding build up on the underside of the intake ports, these heads could be opened up to a factory type 4V Boss intake port, again a good bang for the buck, for a pair of complete A3 type CNC heads for $1500-$1900 imo.
line marks on center port is where ports can be opened up more to a 1-11/16" wide by 2-1/4" tall Ford Boss Trans-Am port
:salute:
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All I can say is wow!!!
I guess you would go down with boat
I guess you would go down with boat
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All I can say is wow too!!!... found another 461ci 750HP pump gas build with these A3 type avg sm/pc... castings :salute:
> RP_0512 <
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do you want me to mail you a life jacket?... :hammer:
guess you dont have/sell any asian made crap import parts from K1TECH, SCAT, EAGLE, CALLIES, LUNATI, FRP, HOLLEY, WISECO, MOLNAR, RPM, WEIAND, MSD, FLOTEK, COMPCAMS, BBM, MRGASKET, CAT, PROCOMP, SRP, MANLEY, RPC, PROFPRODUCTS, RHS, PATRIOT, FELPRO, ARROW, AFD and many many others eh lol... :bs:
> RP_0512 <
do you want me to mail you a life jacket?... :hammer:
guess you dont have/sell any asian made crap import parts from K1TECH, SCAT, EAGLE, CALLIES, LUNATI, FRP, HOLLEY, WISECO, MOLNAR, RPM, WEIAND, MSD, FLOTEK, COMPCAMS, BBM, MRGASKET, CAT, PROCOMP, SRP, MANLEY, RPC, PROFPRODUCTS, RHS, PATRIOT, FELPRO, ARROW, AFD and many many others eh lol... :bs:
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Pro Comp Cleveland Head
Here's another nice pc C head offering from Speier Racing Heads...
This is my Import Cleveland offering
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T&D, LGM and others are making shaft rocker setups for the Avg sm/pc heads now too, good sm/pc head info here too...
BUDGET 351C HEADS - Yellow Bullet Forums
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btw, notice the old M-6010 series 351 SVO block in pic, this is the orginal block that dart/rpm used/copyed for there 351W offerings...
>>> https://forums.corral.net/forums/35...3-$1500-new-boss-9-2-blocks.html#post10817985 <<<
...... :salute::salute::salute: ... :salute::salute::salute:......
Here's another nice pc C head offering from Speier Racing Heads...
This is my Import Cleveland offering
T&D, LGM and others are making shaft rocker setups for the Avg sm/pc heads now too, good sm/pc head info here too...
BUDGET 351C HEADS - Yellow Bullet Forums
btw, notice the old M-6010 series 351 SVO block in pic, this is the orginal block that dart/rpm used/copyed for there 351W offerings...
>>> https://forums.corral.net/forums/35...3-$1500-new-boss-9-2-blocks.html#post10817985 <<<
...... :salute::salute::salute: ... :salute::salute::salute:......
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1,021 Posts
seen good thread of as cast/non cnc sm/pc heads hand port matched to the "china junk" casted weiand 4V TR for those interested.
Matching up a Tunnelram to Procomp heads - The "ROTUNDA" post all NEW TOPICS here. - 351C.unts Clevelands Forever!
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:worthless
Matching up a Tunnelram to Procomp heads - The "ROTUNDA" post all NEW TOPICS here. - 351C.unts Clevelands Forever!
:worthless
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